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Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
So having a sealed drum means its poor quality?
And you wonder why the public cant get decent advice about what to buy
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DrDill wrote:So having a sealed drum means its poor quality?
Discuss it ’til your blue in the face if you wish Doc but sealed drums are here to stay and soon to be the norm. Quality hard to define and, as is quite obvious, if it’s welded, impossible to fix too. Turning the previous, very fixable Zanussi’s & AEG’s , for example, overnight almost, into being non-fixable…..quality eh? Give me a break!
Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
There’s two arguments here and, TBH, you’re both right so chuck it. 😉
Sealed tanks could be made to be durable but, certain conditions would have to be met. Such as the ability to fish out things, the replacement to be cost effective and so on.
If those conditions cannot be met and, we all know that in a great many cases (all I’ve seen thus far) they are not being met.
To render a machine effectively beyond economical repair for a bra wire or a blockage is, in my opinion, wholly unreasonable and not in the customer’s interests whatsoever.
That said, if customers keep demanding lower and lower cost washing machines then manufacturers will seek to reduce costs, this is a way in which they can do that in some measure.
Of course if the machines are made uneconomical to repair prematurely then great news for retailers and manufacturers who sell another white box, not such an environmental triumph or cost effective path. So you could end up with a washing machine that doesn’t last very long and doesn’t work very well. Oh wait, we have that already!
But, that’s just me being a tad cynical I guess.
The fact is, the majority of these we see are on cheap washing machines and they are, frankly, pretty rubbish for the most part so it’s hardly a shocker that the engineers seeing (effectively) unrepairable washers isn’t going to please them. And, they have to tell the poor owner that their nice 18 month old Beko, Indesit, Hotpoint, AEG or whatever else is actually recycling material that happens to look much like a washing machine.
Unsurprisingly most owners are both a bit dismayed and shocked as well as very, very not happy.
K.
Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
“that said, if customers keep demanding lower and lower cost washing machines then manufacturers will seek to reduce costs, this is a way in which they can do that in some measure.”
But, they the customers, do not and that`s the problem. It is not the customers that demand lower prices it is really the manufacturers in competition amongst themselves that lower the price to gain that market share.
Actually, throwing off the rose tinted glasses, the modern 2013 £200 machine is not an electrical/mechanical nightmare as it is commonly portrayed as an electrically mechanical device. But where it comes unstuck, as do much more expensive machines costing 3 times as much under the same circumstances ( e.g.water hardness), is the way they are used, the low temperatures and knock on affects,the size of drum, the spin speed, the water level, bacterial problems and several other problems. For instance the 30 year old Philips 80 series: plastic tank but no one would say that their bearings were an issue at all…..but they ,generally span top whack 1100, had high water levels, and span as they pumped out thus clearing out the rubbish build up within the machine and I am still repairing the odd two or four on my books to this very day. In conclusion. It is not that they had a plastic tank which made them last so long it was because of the axillary design features that made them last i.e. the high water level, small depth drum etc…. The large 7 kg drums of today with a plastic tank suffers from bearing tube/plastic deflection on spin and hair line bearing tube area cracks which is not overly surprising given the load stress and strain= Youngs modulas of plastics whether talking about a sealed tank or a dismantleable tank makes no odds. Though having cut up a sealed tank unit (break up)-a Zanussi- the bearing size was not up to the job given the load requirements… so to be fair you have to take this in to the argument to.Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
sce wrote:“that said, if customers keep demanding lower and lower cost washing machines then manufacturers will seek to reduce costs, this is a way in which they can do that in some measure.”
But, they the customers, do not and that`s the problem. It is not the customers that demand lower prices it is really the manufacturers in competition amongst themselves that lower the price to gain that market share.
Actually, throwing off the rose tinted glasses, the modern 2013 £200 machine is not an electrical/mechanical nightmare as it is commonly portrayed as an electrically mechanical device. But where it comes unstuck, as do much more expensive machines costing 3 times as much under the same circumstances ( e.g.water hardness), is the way they are used, the low temperatures and knock on affects,the size of drum, the spin speed, the water level, bacterial problems and several other problems. For instance the 30 year old Philips 80 series: plastic tank but no one would say that their bearings were an issue at all…..but they ,generally span top whack 1100, had high water levels, and span as they pumped out thus clearing out the rubbish build up within the machine and I am still repairing the odd two or four on my books to this very day. In conclusion. It is not that they had a plastic tank which made them last so long it was because of the axillary design features that made them last i.e. the high water level, small depth drum etc…. The large 7 kg drums of today with a plastic tank suffers from bearing tube/plastic deflection on spin and hair line bearing tube area cracks which is not overly surprising given the load stress and strain= Youngs modulas of plastics whether talking about a sealed tank or a dismantleable tank makes no odds. Though having cut up a sealed tank unit (break up)-a Zanussi- the bearing size was not up to the job given the load requirements… so to be fair you have to take this in to the argument to.I really could not agree more.
It’s not one thing its a combination of thing all coming together although over use and especially overloading are massive contributing factors.
I remember a few year back going to a machine that was 14 months old and the bearings were destroyed, it was a 9kg HP Aqualtis and they had sent me on a customer care call as it was just out of warranty, the customer was giving me a lot of crap about it failing so soon, why the door seal was black and the machine stank in the drum, I decided to check the module and seen how many washes it had done.
When I saw over 2400 I nearly fell over, I then noticed that just over 2000 were 30 degree fast washes.
When I enquiries with here see said that it was often on 5 times a day on fast washes and some times 6. I tried to explain that that’s very excessive usage and that all the 30 washes was the reason the seal was black and smelled.
She just did not care, she could not seen while any of this was a problem.
I refused the warranty repair based on usage but in the end the office gave in and replaced the tank.
People just assume its does not matter how often its used.
Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
A miele machine costing a little over £700 would do 8000 cycles easily so nearly 4 times the life span of that £200 machine, and it would probably do another 2400 cycles!
If i read the above right it agrees that the more expensive machines do last longer, you get what you pay for!
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Just imagine if that person with the 14month old Aqualtis were to replace it for a Miele. Not that the bearings would fail in the 4 yrs it would take to do 8000 cycles but the state of it in that time? Perhaps Herbert’s like that only deserve to own Hotpoint’s anyway!
Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
Like i said, should have bought a miele or ise, i would sell her one or the other
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In fairness though, some people like myself are only too aware that their washing machine gets slaughtered. I have no choice but to wash in the way I do, in the quantities I am doing for myself & my partner for our jobs; certainly it would take more than a few raised eyebrows from people who repair the machines to make me overhaul our respective careers. I do of course have a choice as to what machine I buy though, which is why I am doing my homework now on Meile and ISE, ready for when I have to buy another machine.
On the subject of ISE, can anyone please tell me if it draws hot water on all wash cycles, or is it dependent on the program temperature like it used to be on older machines? Also, I have a combi-boiler and the long hot-water run would be such that I doubt any hot water would get to the washing machine before the washer had taken in enough to do the wash…with this in mind, if I got an ISE would it be better to use it on cold-fill only?
Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
Many people don’t consider it though and, even a “typical” family of four drifts way beyond the average even just using the “average” numbers. The reality is, that most will probably exceed that by a considerable margin. In some cases, by an immense margin.
Most people simply don’t give it a second thought thinking that any old machine should just manage for X years.
If you applied that to a car then mine should be able to do as many miles as I think appropriate over whatever terrain I like without anything breaking or any fault and, if it does, I should be entitled to a free repair or a new car.
The reality is, life isn’t like that.
Yes, with a long run you would be far better off to use cold only because, as you rightly say, using hot is liable to prove a completely pointless and fruitless exercise.
The eco draws hot on all programs at or above 40?C but the results are completely dependent on the installation and long runs on the hot fill are regarded as a no-no. Combi boilers also do not deliver instantaneous hot water so you also have to allow time for the delivery of actual hot water and not mediocre luke warm building up to somewhere around actually being hot.
Installed correctly it’ll work like a champ, is a fantastic piece of kit (even without the hot fill) and will deliver great results but, how much you save on time and energy is completely down to the installation parameters.
So much so that, to test, I have a W288eco and an advanced prototype tumble dryer to test once I get round to installing them in my own home.
If they don’t get blagged by someone in the interim, that should leave me with an original 1406W and vented dryer which have been working like a charm for the past five years or so taking a beating from a “normal” household of two adults and two kids doing, on average, two washes a day at least going begging for a new home.
And, other than the odd bit of Lego, the odd coin or whatever I’ve had to fish out the washer, absolutely no faults whatsoever. Not even a twitch.
K.
Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
Thank you Ken. Yes, it was the fact that the combi boiler takes a while to run off hot water that made me ask.
Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
Re Kwatt and Dr Dill comments- agreed. But it is still not as simple as this and still not as simple as sealed plastic tanks V non sealed tanks. Because-
To use a car analogy: driving your top of the range Western European car for instance in 1985 using Soviet 80 octane petrol won`t get you very far as it is not designed to run on near paraffin ( whereas as a Zappo or a Mosky was )when it should use 97 octane petrol, in other words the car is only as good at running as the petrol you use. Like wise using hard water is likely to make an expensive washer fail to last as long as it would normally have been expected even though you do get better components in more expensive washes. Though having said that I don`t think £600 for a plastic tanked Hotpoint Aqualtis machine is good value at all ( bloody appalling piece of tosh for your money!) and I would not say that £600 is cheap would you for what you get( though a £200 plastic tanked Pro action machine is not bad for the money) In the distant past when I used to repair, on occasion, posh expensive machines all the customers had a proper water softener fitted bar none because this is a hardish water area. A difference with Miele machines, as far as I know, is that the tanks are still s/steel and have a rather nice cast iron bearing assembly that lasts ages in comparison to the cheaper Hotpoint effort. However having mentioned s/steel tanked machines with cast iron bearing assemblies so do many much cheaper Indesits from the recent past too but their bearings did fail the only difference was, but only in my humble opinion and experience, was the lack of being run on softened water ( apart from the possible fact that there are more Indesits out there than Mieles as a percentage so things look worse)……….taking in to account that 30 degrees is 30 degrees whether in a Miele or Indesit makes the same odds given the water being the same softness. And yet it would still be difficult to argue that the cheap Indesit would be a better bet over the Miele for loads of other reasons; that is what you pay for= a superior Miele product with better electrics- very expensive better electrics too! BUT if you were going to run your £900 Miele on normal hard tap water you`d expect trouble sooner rather than later would you not based just on common sense.Re: List of washers with sealed/welded tubs
The Indesit machines with the stainless tank and cast iron or later alloy bearing supports still had a sealed drum.
The quality or otherwise re sealed v screwed drums is irrelevant, the fact is you can get bra wires, socks, screws etc out of a screwed drum, there are many times when it impossible to do this with a welded drum. :rolls:
Jim.
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