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Jaunty / Ken,
Two points to clarify this;
1. While ISE is trading the system remains as is. ISE funds parts and labour for faults then claims it back from an insurance company. In future the premiums will be paid into a ring-fenced account and claims will be paid back to ISE following the same process. The details are sketchy because we have not got decide exactly which type of scheme we use until the new year as the money for the machines sold by our retailers now (including UKW) will not come to ISE until January. As with the insured system once the premium has been paid the machine the customer receives a guaranteed certificate. As suggested by the customer I spoke to this morning on this subject, at this point we will publish full details of the scheme, the institution it is lodged with and the name of the independent trustees (which we will need to have) on the back of this document.
2. If ISE ceases trading the purchaser/ administrator or the case of the new system the trustees will nominate a third party to allocate service work and distribute spares charging back to the insurer and / or the external fund. While for continuity this would most likely be UKW it could equally be JTM or CDSL or anyone national work provider.hi mr booth,
I have pretty much stated our position so have nothing more to add to this thread, I will call you today so you can make a decision on whether you want to keep the machine or not.
kind regards
john
Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?
Sorry I have come in late on this but I have been to south London and back today only to see that previous posters have pre-empted what I am about to say.
1. We cannot just buy a policy to cover the 1607. We had a negotiated contact to insure all ISE branded machines at preset rates. When we were bringing in a mixture of machines with domestic carcasses under 2 and 5 year cover, plus a 10 year guaranteed machine with a commercial carcass the deal made sense for both sides. We lost heavily on the 10s but gained on the domestic machines as the insurance shielded us for heavy uses who wore out components much quicker than the industry averages under which the policy’s premiums were based. When we elected to cease selling anything which does not have a commercial carcass we would have been insane to pay premiums which are massively in excess of the repair liability which we can calculate from the service history. So notice was served to the insurer all existing models sold, insured and discontinued before the end of September.2. 1607s do have 10 year cover but this is funded via us paying what were the insurance premiums into a secure trust fund. From the service history we know this will build up a health surplus in 2011 and then after a formal audit our rate of payment for subsequent years will be set. It also means that we do not have to burden our cash flow waiting for claims to be paid months after we have bought the parts and paid the engineer. Nor do we have find additional money for claims which the public would expect us to cover but the insurer will not.
3. I accept the communication of the change has been a problem. We briefed trade and our commercial clients in the late summer early autumn. The new website which should have gone live three weeks ago has been delayed, but will finally be up on Monday. We thought all references to the guarantees been underwritten had been removed and as this thread has highlighted ones we missed they have been immediately removed. All models in the sales literature have been delisted for over one month before we introduced the new lines which are covered by provision.
Actions
Any customer who has concerns their machine in not insured may contact the ISE office and will be sent them insurer’s reference number they send us to confirm the cover on all the machines we send them on our monthly sales declaration.
Any customer who has bought a 1607 and feels they have been mislead, may have a full refund and we will collect the machine. However, the 10 year guarantee stands, provision is being made and will be honoured.
As a previous poster has stated no other manufacturer is this open about how the guarantees are funded and just because our competitors are well known brands does not mean they are safe. Recently Servis UK went out of business defaulted on their guarantees while their parent company were bailed out by the Italian government and carried on. At least we know our liability is covered.Re: ISE Insurance backed Warranty?
Dear Sir,
As MD of ISE I will pick this one up.
Up to mid September 2010 all ISE machines were insured via broker with AXA. But since the financial crisis we have increasing problems receiving payment on claims.
To put that into context on the ISE10 we have claimed less than 10{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of what we had paid in premiums and had over 30{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of these claims rejected in some instances 18 months after we have paid the repairing agents. So we were buying the policies and paying the claims ourselves to receive a proportion of the money months later.
Also the premiums were based on the reliability of domestic machines. The 10’s have commercial carcasses and therefore the premiums were way in access of the liability yet the premiums were due to go up with the 1607W.
We therefore came to the conclusion that though insurance is a good idea for domestic machines such as the ISE5 and 2 it is not however cost effective for the 10’s.
On the advice of our accountant and lawyer we set up an ESCROW style account (similar to a company pension scheme) which we pay in to every time a machine is sold at the same level as we currently pay. We cannot touch this money and it is annually audited to ensure there is more than enough funds to cover our liability if we cease trading. This may sound a risk but had we done this for the 1606w (all of which are insured) the fund would now have a £180k surplus.
The above was briefed to all the selling agents at our conference at the end of September and is made clear on our new website which unfortunately has not yet gone live due to technical issues.
The terms and conditions on the 1607 are identical to before and if we go out of business you will still be covered, in fact the service you would receive were we to cease trading will be better than those people who would have to deal with an underwriter applying the letter rather than the spirit of the policy (something we currently shield our customers and agents from).
I hope this puts your mind at rest; however, if you feel mislead and given the fact the website is not yet been changed over I will refund your money and collect the machine if you no longer want it.
John Hopwood – MD ISE Ltd
Re: ISE5 dishwasher to buy
Hi Guys,
So for not formally stating the dishwasher situation, though I am sure I meantioned to you all on more Jan – April UK tour with the new AW23.
Our dishwasher volume halved when the price went up £20 in November when the Euro fell from 1.44 to 1.28.
When in December the Euro fell to near enough 1.00 we would have had to put it up a further £35 on making the mahine retail at £470 – £500. We would never had sold them.
We were hoping that Euro would fall before we ran out of stock (which has just happened).
We would be now be buying at 1.08 to make it worthwhile we would need to be above 1.30.
We therefore have no choice but to suspened it. We will take it off the website and the new brochure (due shortly) will not include it.
Sorry guys but to be competetive the machine need a £399 rsp at £470+ it’s not worth the money.
Cheers
John
Hi Guys
After six months of rapid change forced on us by external market pressures (economic and exchange rate) in internal challanges (moving spares to Kilmarnock and coping with range changes) stability is the watch word for the next few months.
We will get the website updated and produce new brochures to support the new machine over the next few weeks, now we have production machines to photo-graph.
It has also become clear through coversations and threads on the forums we to to clarify our processes in general and service claims proceedure specifically.
As you know we (unlike every other manufacturer) insure our quarantees with a third party Axa, meaning if we cease trading you are covered for parts and labour (unlike Service UK, MFi etc, etc).
While this is good from a secuity point of view it means we have to abide by the rules of our insurers whose T&Cs are printed on every guarantee certificated your customers receive (not that they read them).
Prior to the finacial crisis in the Autumn our claims were rarely challanged, that has changed.
We have always been flexible and helped you where we can, however we do not have a majic pot to cover the increasing number of claims that the insurer rejects (in fairness quite legitemately). At the moment the number of instances where we have had to come back to you on is minimal and we are concious that you all do work on our behalf which is not re-charged. That is why we now feel the time is right to clarify the grey areas.
We intend to publish a booklet expaining how everything works from orders, deliveries through registration to cliams so we all know where we stand. This then gives us a firmer foundation going forward as we move through our fourth year of trading and beyond.
Thanks again for you continued support,
Regards
John
Hi Guys,
I am back after a two week break following my 18,000 mile UK tour with the new machine.
Websites and brochures are high on my hit list, we had to wait for a production machine for Ken to photgraph which he no has.
Regards
John
Hi Alister,
Sorry I am late getting back to you on this, I’ve been off.
I am sorry you are frustrated with Hi-way’s deliveries to you. They are a huge logistics company and operate a nationwide delivery schedual going to each UK postcode on a weekly basis with a two day delivery window, this does not make them very flexible.
This means the driver loads up with a full load leaves first thing on the morning of day one and returns close of play on day two. The delivery slot is then dependant the route he is taking and he is also at the mercy of the UK road network (which in your neck the woods is tough going particularly when coming from the north).
While I can raise specific issues with them (please e-mail them to me) they will always point at their 97{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} intact and on time performance (better than their 95{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} SLA). That said when things do go wrong we will always break our backs to get machines to you even if than means me.
Regards
John
PS They don’t do our deliveries to the public, we use a specialist company but charge the customer an extra £50 for two man drops in 48 hrs with pre-booked time slots (this is not economic for normal trade deliveies)
Thanks Tim good to see you this morning – thanks for the very kind words.
Jim – glad you like the DVD, we’ve really tried hard to learn from previous launches and get our act together it seems a life time ago I was showing you the proto-type in Manchester.
John
Guys,
I have been on the road since the start of February with our proto-type machine (17,000 miles done – three days to go) so have not been monitoring the posts closely, but Ken tipped me off about this debate which I don’t want to get out of hand so.
For the record;
1. Portway
I too was surpised Portway were offering a 1400 spin Amica machine given their ‘stack them high sell them cheap’ business model.
I called the UK agent for Amica this afternoon who informed me that our 6kg machine model number AWCE 14DA is exclusive to us – so is not the same as Portway’s – who out of the blue have bought 80 of a different design lower specification 1400 machine which by ‘conicidence’ they took in to stock last week, just before we got our stock arrives and are selling at £192 which according to Simon is at little if any margin – spoiler??.
My view is let them get on with it, the service work is done by Glen Dimplex who have no parts and are causing more problems than they solve.
2. Cheap Machines
Had we continued with the Vestel machines due to the 4{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} factory increase plus the Euro effect, the trade price of the ISE 2 would have been £216 with us making £10 per machine.
The ISE 5 with a carbon brush motor replacing the current induction would have been £368. This is bad value for money so they had to go.
I shopped arround and the best machine for the money was the Amica which is on a par with the current 5-2 in our opinion is better build quality and is easier to work on and at £321 with five year cover is only £8 more than the Vestel machine was and with the price is held for the whole of 2009. I felt this was a good deal as it allows you a direct relpacement for the current five effectively for the same money as before.
Unfortunately the financial climate with suppliers has changed for everyone. When we started the factories asked how much could you sell, they now ask how are you going to pay for the stock. By switching supply there is no way any factory will give us credit on new product. To pay cash up front on two machines would require an extra £200,000. By selling through the existing stock we can liquidate half of this thus allowing us to go with the new machine.
Unlike MFi and Sovereign we will not borrow money to fund stock and even if we did; tying up that amount of money to make £10 per machine if the fuel price & exchange rates stay stable, you buy in threes and you all pay me within terms is too financially burdensome on a business of our size.
This does not mean we can not get cheap machines. As I said to you all when we met face to face if enough of you are are willing to order and pay for machines up front I will source them for you, bring them in insure them, distribute them and only take a £5 to cover admin. But this does not answer the question how cheap is cheap?
Doing this I recon I could get close to Portway’s trade prices on Amica but this is still nowhere near Beko’s and Indesit’s in the £120s and Gronje in the £140s, never mind special offers as people dump stock to liquidate cash.
After Friday I am having a couple of weeks off after which if you want me to source a cheap machine I will; but as for ISE we have come to the conclusion we can not compete at the bottom end. This is why the new machine has been badged ISE 2 and is available at £271 with a two year warranty which is on par with similar spec Bosch machines and will retail at £399 is as low as we will go if we have to fund the stock.
3. Insurrance
I could save money on insurrance in one of three ways;
1. Don’t lay off the guarantees, keep the cash pay the service calls ourselves instead of shelling out £10,000 a month to Axa via an FSA registered broker.
2. Reduce your labour rates from £50 / £60 per job to £20 / £30.
3. Sub-contract the service work on mass to someone like JTM or Glendiplex.All the above go against our founding principles; you look after your own customers, if we cease trading the guarantees stand and you are paid a fair rate for the work you do. If this means we pay more than the competition so be it.
Sorry for the essay, sorry if it comes over defensive but we have worked hard to keep the ship steady in stormy seas. You know where I am if you want a chat (phone me) I will hopely see you on Friday Tim (I spoke to Roy last week so assume you’ve got me penciled in).
The new machines are in tomorrow letters and DVDs with user manuals, parts lists and a video of Jim taking the machine appart is on it’s way.
I hope this clarifies where we are at.
Regards
John
Machines loaded today in Poland will be in Leeds on schedual on 2nd April, Thanks for your patience
John
We are now very close to be able to unvail the options on our new machine, I was in Anglesey yesterday and am going to Kilmarnock on Thursday to drop off machines for testing.
I will then be receiving fully specked prototypes before the end of the Month which I will show to all our long term agents including a trip up to Dundee, Leeds, Manchester, Hull, Bristol, London, Kent the midlands, East Anglia, Dorset – I may not get to cornwall) prior to us making a final decision in a side room at the WTA meeting on the 20th February. With pre-booked production and a lot of work already been done we hope to have the new machine in place, with tec info, user manuals and spares when the fives run out early March.
Face to face I can explain fully to issues and involved without being guarded, but all suppliers are in the same boat.
Once the current UK stocks have gone the full impact of the Euro will hit forcing up prices for everyone and with many retailers and distributors unable to get credit from factories, even more will have to rationalise their range and others will be forced into receivership. By the time the market stablises (hopefully by the summer) is going look very different place, at which point we can look again at our range from a position of strength with much of the competition gone.
At the moment we are just trying to ride out a storm by getting a machine that we can be proud off, at a price point that represents good value for money for and your customers (ideally fixed for one year) Your contiued support is greatly appreciated and all will become clear shortly.
Expect a call soon.
John
Gentlemen I think we have a plan.
I have been working behind the scenes to find a way through the colapse of stirling and the current unstability in the market. Finding a balance between quality and afforablity on our machines is very tough, having spoken to four different potential suppliers and think I have found a way to move forward.
I am going to write to you in your December statements explaining the situation (I am not posting it as what I say here is read by our suppliers and competitors) we have two options and as we did at the start I’d like you to help with the final decision.
For this I will do another UK tour, this will allow you to see the options we have (including new machines) before we need to make a decision. Also it will allow you talk face to face with me (as we did in the early days) before my time got swollowed by tough trading conditions.
Face to face I can be less guarded than I have to be in public and let you see the forward plan and field questions on service, parts van stocks etc.
Call me or e-mail me if you are away in January so I can plan my visit accordingly.
Regards
John
£550 is the target RSP, I am hoping that what I lose on machine cost I can claw some back on insurrance savings.
When I’ve got figures I’ll do a UK tour with the proposed machine and talk face to face.
I can not give details on the forums what I say gets back to our competitors and suppliers.
What price is to high for the 2 I need to know whether to except or reject the new facier 2 in 2009
John
