[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

Penguin45 wrote:Nice to see the light bulb on, T i m 😀 .

Hey, it happens. 😉

UKW and tv ads…… hmm – got any money you’d like to donate?

Don’t they say ‘speculate to accummulate’ ?

This site runs on a shoestring and is probably seen by the “big boys” as an irritation.

If seen by them at all?

We’re quite right, they know we’re right, I know we’re right and you know we’re right.

Glad we have that sorted, right, off to the pub! 😉

Trouble is, a small group of annoyed independent repairers with a website versus the global power of the big manufacturers aided and abetted by the retail sheds…..

🙁

There are times I think that you have to be a special sort of masochist to keep on and on spreading the message. Often (like this thread), one to one – hopefully, others read the threads and learn.

Well I guess P . Are there no Euro Directives in the pipeline that will force the manufactureres to make this stuff better and / or more repairable? Like there is supposedly £250 on every new car sale to offset the cost of disposal to the final keeper? You have to pay to dispose of tyres now, some public refuse plases are charging / visit? As soo as it cost more than £0 to get rid of OUR stuff (charged directly to us, rather than invisibly through council taxes etc) then again that might get factored into this ‘repair or replace’ dilemma? (but knowing the good citezens of the UK will probably just end up in a ditch somewhere).

Thing is, I don’t actually have a problem with cheap washers.

Look, everyone, we’ve outed the infidel!!! 😉

Realistically, they should have cheap parts to reflect their status and give them a chance of being servicable – the drum unit in your appliance is a classic example of what is really happening. It’s a nice looking, AAB efficient machine, which at face value offers nice “green” operating credentials. Blows it by not amortising it’s production energy over a reasonable period though, doesn’t it?

Yup, big time P. And partly why I’m on this mini ‘crusade’, to see if with a bit of latteral thinking, some luck and a tweek or two I can’t give this particular white box another 5 years life?

Imagine a 2CV where you couldn’t take the engine apart because it was welded together.

Hey, that’s my line! But joking aside that *is* the way cars are going. Everything managed by the CPU(s). Engines that are bolted together with one-way-trip bolts, gearboxes and axles already ‘sealed for life’? but go to those countries where there is more sense (need?) than money and some amazing things are done on a daily bases to keep this stuff running on a shoestring. *We* should know better, we should be doing things because it’s the right thing to do, not the one that will earn the most money. I’m all for not giving the consumer the chance to buy rubbish by forcing all manufacturers to provide warranties for (say) 3 years (minimum) on this stuff, it shouldn’t be a consumable. If to do that means they can’t actually scrimp on the last few pence that makes a tub sealed rather than openable that we are back on track.

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

kwatt wrote:Hi Tim,

Given that you are obviously intelligent

Aww shucks 😉

and get the whole swindle thing you’ll probably also realise that the worst enemy that a lot of people that buy appliances have is themselves. Many don’t ask or stop to think what the consequences are of serial cost cutting, they just don’t care so long as it’s a low price.

Well to be fair I’m not sure it’s dawned on many of them yet to ask if there actually is an alternative? Where is all the TV advertising between the soaps or time on Watchdog?

Then, a couple of years or so later (if it even takes that long) we have them on the phone if you’re a manufacturers agent as I am or on here mumping that they goods weren’t “fit for purpose” never stopping to think about the value of the goods. Fact is that people have an expectation of how long appliances will last, most often longer than most people will own a car, yet invest little time to research them and even less money in them.

Well the days of a car being (finantially) un-repairable after 3 years isn’t far off … assuming we let it be that way of course (and we will).

Now that may seem a tad harsh on the surface of it but it’s not really, we’re all guilty of not paying attention from time to time.

True ..

When I started UKW one of the first things I did was try to tell people through the manufacturer section, which back in the beginning was nowhere near as complete as it is now, but the notion was there. Two things, as usual, worked against it getting done any faster, time and money. You see everything here has been done either for free often very graciously by the independent repairers themselves or myself and others directly involved. I’d love to do more, a lot more, but there are constraints on both the time and money thing.

All understood and I think what you have here is brilliant .. but I’m not sure it’s something yer average punter would stumble on?

We try to tell people, but it only works when they actually listen to us.

But were are the newspaper ads K, the hard sales pitch to the resellers?

And still we see, almost daily, where can I get the best, cheapest, fastest, longest lasting washing machine.. Oh and for less than £200! :rolls:

After a while it tends to grate more than a little and it’s why sometimes the answers can be a little curt at times.

Understood ..

In short people will get what they pay for and, so long as people won’t or can’t pay for quality then there’s absolutely nothing we can do about it and manufacturers won’t change so long as the most important thing to them in the sea of white boxes at the local emporium is price. All that we could do was to have our own brand to combat this as best we could, hence ISE.

I sometimes chat to the guy who sells the cheap tools on the local market. A lady brought back a pair of £1 garden shears after 18 months because they ‘didn’t work any more’. Actually they just needed some servicing (ie, the nut tightening up) so the guy gave her her money back (it was easier).

You are absolutely correct, because it’s “only a couple of hundred quid” people toss them out thinking that they just got a bad one. After two or three people start to learn, sometimes, that they’re really not doing themselves any favours with the cheap rubbish but it often takes a while to sink in sadly.

True to a degree, however, if I buy a £2.50 multimeter from Maplins I don’t expect to be able to work it in a commercial role, but I do expect it to last a reasonable amount of time if used ‘reasonably’? Putting a £200 washer though 4 full loads a day might be considered a ‘heavy duty’ role but one load every other may not (so the machine should last longer than 1 year)?

So, as long as people continue the practise and don’t try to break it then it will continue. It will continue to cost more money and produce more waste.

True ..

But it’s okay according to the industry bigwgs, we can save a polar bear by all turning it down to 30 and buying new, more efficient, appliances.

Well, there is that I’m sure, but I understand the energy used in creating, disposing and/or re-processing of this gear far outweighs the energy the less efficient devices waste over their lifetimes (especially these days!). Similar with a more reliable appliance that doesn’t require many (any?) service visits .. they all add to the carbon footprint etc.

Nope, I believe we should all fix our own stuff, like back in the old days [1] …. ah, hold on, whatabout all you service engineers 🙁 I’ll get me coat! 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[1] I think when the revolution comes that statement will be more that just a joke. Or those of us who can will have the wealth we have long deserved …

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

Penguin45 wrote:I tried using sealed bearings on the old Creda 17 series machines, as the seal was a notorious weak spot. My conclusion is that they are not really sealed, at best water repellant. They just failed more slowly.

😉

Worth noting that the previous range of Hotpoint machines used an open cage rear bearing for the best part of 30 years.

I guess the logic there is similar to the old 2CV. First the roof leaks, then the floor rusts and leaks and the system is in balance. 😉

Given that this is a “project”, you’re best bet would be to drill a drain hole through the bearing housing just in front of the bearing and just accept that you’ll get the odd dribble down the back.

Penguin45.

Yeah, I think I will do that (I mentioned it elsewhere) but being me I’ll fit a stub pipe and run a tube to the front filter area so I can keep an eye on it (and keep any dribbles away from the motor). 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

kwatt wrote:

T_i_m wrote:
Agreed, they aren’t ‘supposed’ to get wet and I understand the seal and the ferrule relationship, but how do you explain a new (in relative terms) machine with (presumably) new_from_the_factory ferrule and seal causing a bearing fail due to water ingress?

Because people only generally look at the ticket price in the shop and all too little else sadly. 😕

K.

Yeahbut, could that be because most of Macufacturers are playing this ‘price engineered’ game and the poor punters aren’t often given the facts (and as we have mentioed previously K, the facts aren’t always forthcoming or easy to find)?

IF, the base models were say £500 [1] and made (at least) ‘properly’ then they might just last longer than a year and you guys (the repair people) might get some more call-outs? “I’m not throwing this 2 year old 500 quid machine away I’m gonna get it fixed .. ” sorta idea? They wouldn’t bother if it was ‘only’ £200?

All the best ..

T i m

[1] The ISE principal again? Manufacturers would actully earn more profit by adding ~£300 for ~£20 worth of ‘improvements’ (like not glueing my tub together), you get more work and we have less landfill (win-win-win)! 😉

p.s. Can anyone give me a technical reason why I *shouldn’t* use sealed bearings please?

[T_i_m]

Re: Sealed or Shielded bearings?

Penguin45 wrote:They’re not supposed to get wet at all, so it doesn’t matter. It’s all down to the seal and ferrule on the shaft.

Penguin45.

Agreed, they aren’t ‘supposed’ to get wet and I understand the seal and the ferrule relationship, but how do you explain a new (in relative terms) machine with (presumably) new_from_the_factory ferrule and seal causing a bearing fail due to water ingress? It’s not even like there was much sign of calcium buildup and certianly none where it might matter?

Either they put the water in at the factory or something ‘new’ leaked then failed.

So my point is it looks like it might ‘matter’, so rather than have to go all through this again in a year (and working on the ISE principal of making things ‘better’) why can’t we put some backup systems into place if it costs little or nothing extra (apart from a bit of lateral thinking possibly) if we can do so? I don’t mean the Manufacturers (that would be silly ), I mean the people trying to keep this stuff running for themselves.

I propose a new seal, a liberal smear of something like Shell Retinax Grease EP2′ behind it and two sealed bearings.

What’s the odds that will last longer than a year (the AEG was on 5 after the same repair before the motor went)?

As part of this project I might even drill and tap a hole in the bottom of the iron sleeve that carries the bearings, fit a threaded outlet and run a small hose from there through the back of and into the filter access compartment. If it was clear hose and the end plugged you could even see if any water was actually getting past the seal and bearing … 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

Re: Zanussi ZWF1431W bearing replacement?

Penguin45 wrote:The problem is that the complete tub assembly has no parts listing beyond the one for the unit. There is a secondary list of components if you wished to build the tub unit up from scratch. BUT there is no guarantee that the parts actually interchange………

Penguin45.

Ah, ok thanks. So, does 124026003 come up as the same drum component as the drum as used in the built up unit can you tell please? (And are you saying that EVEN if it did show the same part number it may not be the exact same part ?)

In case it’s different, the spares system I’m most familiar with (motorbikes) the same part and therefore part number could be used for many models over many years but only if it was the exact same (or functionally equivelent) component?

All the best and thanks ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

kwatt wrote:Out the back if it’s a split cabinet. 😉

K.

It actually came out of the front quite easily .. well .. it came out of the front .. 😉

I removed (from memory and some entertainment for the pro’s here) 😉

Top and rear panels.

The motor and any hoses that joined the tub.

The door catch assy.

The front top electric panel (rhs plastic lug broke off as I undid the screw). I had previously noted the left hand digits on the display looked a bit blurred so might have a look in there a bit later to see if water has got in there. Anther design modification needed if it has.

The large clip retaining the door seal to the front panel.

The front panel (Torx screws underneath).

The inlet pipe from the door seal and door seal from the tub.

Because it looked like it was going to make the tub removal difficult (heavy), I took the concrete weight off the tub.

The lower damper units (just top pins).

The top support springs (luckily our daughter happened to walk by) 😉

I actually cut the tub in half slowly (along the existing seam) using a coarse blade on my Bosch Sabre saw, taking care not to touch the drum.

Question for those with access to the parts lists if I may (I believe our Dave did suggest it wasn’t but I didn’t have the drum out at the time) ..

The number on the spider is: 124026003. Is this definitely *not* the same drum as would be used in the spit tub versions please?

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

Re: ZWF1431W now a twin tub! 😉

Alex wrote:Can I ask the obvious, how are you going to stitch it back together. Or was this investigative surgery in the course of research?

Alex

Well, to be honest I’m not sure yet and I’ll tell you why.

Firstly I wasn’t sure if what would normally be the lugs that are used to carry the (17?) bolts that hold the two halves together contained anything, like a metal barbed spike (something that would have been a one_way_trip type of cpmpressive thing to support the halves whilst being joind (assuming it wasn’t friction welded etc)). To find out I thought the eaiest way was to first cut the tub in half. It turns out they are solid and so I’ll probably simply drill them out to 6mm diameter and use stainless bolts and nylock nuts / washers (same price for 17 of them as one Zanussi bolt)! 😉

Interestingly I have managed to retrieve (nearly intact) the triangular ‘lip’ that used to sit in a mating groove and sandwich the rubber seal that would have been in there on the non welded version. If I could re-glue that to the cut half I might even be able to use one of the std seals, backed up by some silicone adhesive (as opposed to selant) or some of the more industrial ‘snot’ as used on cars by the likes of 3M. Tigerseal also might be worth an experiment.

http://www.u-pol.com/countries/pl/downl … erseal.pdf

I couldn’t stand the suspence and have now taken the remaining bearing and seal out. It turns out the worst bearing was the the outer one and that seems to have failed due to water build up between the two bearings (the inner shield of the outer bearing being very rusty). On previous machines I have noticed a hole under casting on the spider allowing this water out? Is this a feature on the ISE Machines, a small hose taking any water from between the bearings to the pump out pump or into a small chamber with a fluid sensor bringing up a ‘Main seal leaking’ LED? 😉

Anyroadup, in case these sound familiar …

Seal:
40.2-72-11/14 CFW 124966700 RWDR-Kombi

Inner bearing: SKF BB1-3241 304049C

Outer bearing was: 62062

Thoughts, If the inner bearing was a double sealed type rather than shielded, if the water had got past the main seal it wouldn’t have had anywhere else to go other than possibly between the inner bearing and shaft. Had the outer bearing also been double sealed and the gap between them ‘drained’, might they have lasted longer (we know that’s not the idea but ..)?

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

helo_75 wrote:have you binned the zanussi then?

No chance … I’m made of more resolute stuff!

AEG Lavamat 6100 Digitronic threw it’s bearings at 10 years. They wanted £130 for a new spider. £10 for two bearings, £15 for a new seal and some fun in the workshop later and it’s running again.

Then at 12 years it tripped the RCD. Blew the carbon out the motor, sorted. 😉

Now at 15 years there is this 18K between the stator and ground and the motor is about to have a soak in some distilled (or RO) water as a final go and clearing it.

In the mean time the Zanussi tumble dryer needed a new front and rear bearing .. now running fine again (£36 all in).

To cover us while the AEG was offline a mate gave me his ‘faulty’ Ariston. Once I’d removed the clothes that had layed wet in there for a few months, removed the necklace that had caused the pump-out pump to ‘fail’ [1] and the congealed power below the power tray that was causing it to ‘leak’, that’s running fine but for how long (from what I read they seem to be very unreliable)?

The Zanussi is waiting till I get some time to disect it and I’ll report back here what I find.

In the meantime I’ve been selling the ISE concept … one neighbour has been consuming one washing machine every 18 months .. (but now has a Miele).

All the best ..

T i m

[1] It was a right struggle to open the pump cover and it was quicker / easier to remove the pump and do it on the bench?

[T_i_m]

Re: Ariston Margherita AWD12 spin button.

iadom wrote:AWD12 😉

Thanks fella!

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

Re: Ariston Margherita AWD12 spin button.

Penguin45 wrote:In for slow spin.

Penguin45.

Thanks fella 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

kwatt wrote:Not really, no machines have as yet fallen outside their warranty. 😉

K.

Ah, gotcha (and I was saying I was confused) 😉

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

kwatt wrote:Yep or they will be listed here in the online store as soon as required.

K.

“as soon as required”?

Confused ..

All the best.

T i m

[T_i_m]

Re: Zanussi ZWF1431W bearing replacement?

kwatt wrote:

T_i_m wrote:
Thanks for (especially) clarifying the fist point K. So, it’s out of warranty and I need a part .. I guess I can’t just go into my local whitegoods shop (unless they are ISE dealers etc)?

We try to keep the components used as standardised as we can. This serves several ends…

Keeps the prices low
Means the engineers will often have them in stock
Means the engineers get what we call a “first fix”, i.e. no revisits with parts
Means that most common spares are available off the shelf as they are as standardised as we can get them
Means that even if the local dealer doesn’t have a part in stock they can get most within 24-48 hours

Helps us, helps people that own the machines so everyone’s happy.

K.

Erm, ok, but how do *I* get hold of ISE spares? Do I go and get them from my local engineer?

All the best ..

T i m

[T_i_m]

kwatt wrote:Out the back if it’s a split cabinet. 😉

K.

I don’t think it is K. The sides and rear are one piece, the top is open and it looks like the front might come off?

All the best ..

T i m

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