meggers

[adv]

Re: meggers

Martin wrote:

adv wrote:
i dont need a megger if a washer aint spinning. brushes belt module. not draining. mmm hink thatl be pump or a blockage. oven naw heat element. over heat state? fridge naw go compreeser. or state. got a pac 1000 pat tester tho 😆 any way. when put on test ie hold button down for 60secs.p1 an p4 flash twice. at end same as orignal board does

Errrrr?….can you put it another way please my enigma machine (ooops sorry – megger) isn’t getting a reading on that right now. 🙂

Would you like to take up my earlier offer though I wonder? some one sent me some tech stuff, thanks

lee8 wrote:Isn`t it now part of the law that all appliances are safety checked including insulation test, Earth loop impedance and earth continuity.

Sadly I have to report that no such legislation applies, the law doesn’t carry a megger on the van either. :rolls:

[Martin]

Re: meggers

Specialist01269 wrote:Hi Martin: Can’t fault you mate, an informative article would be an excellent idea. Maybe the problem for a lot of engineers when it comes to Meggers is that they don’t understand them so can’t see the advantages they can bring to our everyday work, apart from the safety aspect. I know mine has paid for itself time & time again over the years & continues to do so. 🙂

Thanks for that Andy and since my previous post I have had a better idea regarding the purpose and use of a megger. And being as so many guys have subscribed to UKW in purchasing their “Fault Code Guide” such basic informative advice could so easily be added to that splendid publication to turn the whole booklet into a much more informative and coordinated essential guide for field service engineers wherever they may be.

Such basic necessary information is sadly lacking in this trade and only one organisation in one location has taken the trouble to encompass training in that regard and that comes at a price of course. Whereas a simple basic guide that all could (and no doubt would) purchase and keep with them at all times would be invaluable.

Alex was quite rightly horrified at the thought that many do not carry out the basic and necessary insulation tests. Although in truth he, like me, wasn’t too surprised at that revelation which somehow typifies the basic level this trade operates anyway. No legislative requirements, skillsets only for gas products and associated electrical wiring installations therefore the vast majority of what’s left is open season to all who care to take the back panel off and charge a fee for their services.

The only possible option for those of us that work independently of any companies that would otherwise insist on certain training standards for there operatives is through the likes of UKW. 😀

I wouldn’t mind betting Ken has already thought of that and is going to add it to the next issue of the Fault Code Guide? But just in case the idea is new to him I would like to volunteer my services. Another Martin Conundrum no doubt. 😈

Edit: I spotted and corrected a spelling mistake….slapped wrist time! 🙁

[jackster]

Re: meggers

Another idea would to be to make a simple video and sticking it on you tube or a dvd to flog in the Shop@!

[Specialist01269]

Re: meggers

Hi Martin: Could it not be done both ways? firstly on the Forum for engineers who want / need to know now & then in the next fault code guide, so that it’s there as a ready reference for the engineer on site.
Talking of the Fault code guide, any idea when the new 1 is due out? mine is getting a bit worn now 😆 it’s another excellent piece of kit for engineers.

Andy

[Martin]

Re: meggers

jackster wrote:Another idea would to be to make a simple video and sticking it on you tube or a dvd to flog in the Shop@!

I know where your coming from Jackster you cheeky boy. 😈

And there was me thinking I was the only resident troll on here.:D

But seriously……….

……..

Specialist01269 wrote:Hi Martin: Could it not be done both ways?

Anything is possible I shouldn’t wonder, I’m up for it either way! 8)

[Specialist01269]

Re: meggers

Martin you being kinky again you naughty boy. I think that’s you off to Miss Whiplash for punishment 😆

Andy

[lee8]

Re: meggers

JoeStrummer wrote:

well said Alex…..and I thought this trade had moved on from those days. 😥

Dec 09 a major manufacturer begining with the letter B had all there Engineers at the annual meet and xmas do, they were all pulled up on the severe lack of safety testing following customer survey, most admitted they did not no how to safety check.

They were issued instructions and warned.

[Martin]

Re: meggers

lee8 wrote:Dec 09

Dec 08 I guess you meant Lee? But as this Christmas approaches I wouldn’t think procedures have changed much for them anyway?

A local cowboy outfit down here, south of Watford Gap Services that is, has on it’s invoices a box their engineers fill in and hand over to their customers. 2 boxes marked “Insulation Test & Earth Loop Test”. And with little exception each box is ticked. Whoa betide their supervisor spots a carbon copy not ticked………!

Wouldn’t it be great if our trade were subjected to the same scrutiny the motor trade has? That ‘approved’ repairers had, by law, to PAT test appliances every year in every home in the land. That every appliance that failed would either need repairing or replacing to comply with the law. Chances are every repairer would get in the relevant testing equipment and be up for it pretty damn quick!!!! 😈

[Alex]

Re: meggers

In answer to the point raised where the instigator of this thread was looking for assistance on fault finding on a particular appliance, the title does say “Megger”.

leavemetogetonwithit wrote:That’s true. It was intended for DIYers. But if such a respected practitioner of our art can write a book suggesting such things to the public and has not yet, to my knowledge, after twenty years, been prosecuted for inciting people to injure or kill themselves then I don’t think I or anyone else on here has too much to worry about.Mike.

I have been in this business since 1972, and ex Electricity Board, yet never heard of Graham Dixon, so assume it is an early Haynes type manual?

leavemetogetonwithit wrote:As for worrying about courts, just how many from our trade have caused injury or death to their customers?Mike.

One would be too many. Not too long ago an employed engineer was killed whilst working on a Servis appliance. The case is still to be resolved regards laibility, and his past employers are likely to be considered as culpable if they cannot prove & demonstrate they gave full documented training

leavemetogetonwithit wrote: And how many have been taken to court for it? And how many are languishing in jail as we speak?
If you take your motor to the garage and pay them for an MOT test and next day a wheel falls off, are they liable for any damage caused?Mike.

Unless they can show they took all necessary steps, and documented everything, there is a strong possibilty. We live in a litigation culture, and if someone can be proved negligent, there is a case waiting to happen, someone will lose a family member, and someone else will make money out of it. Moreover, the repair company will lose their business and possibly their home.

leavemetogetonwithit wrote:I’m all for doing whatever is practical to ensure I don’t hurt anyone. But there are limits. I take responsibility for anything arising due to my workmanship. But if an element I didn’t even touch decides to go low insulation next day and kills my customer, I’ll be damned if that’s my fault.
Mike.

Can I sum this up by saying that last line “I’ll be Damned if that is my fault” could come back to haunt someone. If an element goes down next day, and you proved there was a sufficent earth path, there is nothing to worry about as all will happen is the trip or a fuse popping.

I’m sorry if I took the topic away from the original point, and if I’ve rattled some sabres, but I could not watch this and look as though UKW members appeared to be missing basic safety.

Perhaps some people should stop digging when they get up to the neck.

Alex

[lee8]

Re: meggers

Ops yes it was Dec 08.

An engineer in a ServiceForce depot was killed repairing a microwave around the 2000 time.

Around that time I remember a DIY guy killed replacing the belt on his Hotpoint W/m.

I often failed appliances for Earth faults, even when changing door seals.

Management are fully aware it happens, as the paper work always has the same results written on them.

The companies are not liable as they ensure every step is taken to ensure their Engineers comply, if that then results in a death or serious injury, there covered and the Engineer will be the one paying the fine and serving the time.

Deaths and injuries do occur, people do get prosecuted, it just does not make national headlines.

In Wales there is a guy who didn`t clean the boiler he serviced, it spilled products of combustion into the premises, it killed the occupants.

He was sentenced last month I believe.

It does happen.

:rolls:

[mbdas]

Re: meggers

Firm fined after engineer is electrocuted
A Hatfield firm has been fined £35,000 after a young father was electrocuted. SF (UK) Ltd, the engineering arm of British Gas, was also ordered to pay £65,000 costs at St Albans Crown Court. On 7 June 2005, SF (UK) Ltd engineer Ricky Cronin was attending a residential call-out. While repairing a washing machine motor fault, 30-year-old Mr Cronin made contact with live parts after removing the back panel and was electrocuted as the power was left on. Mr Cronin was only in his fifth week of employment with the company, although he did have previous experience. As part of the induction programme he was accompanied on the job by a more experienced colleague. A Health and Safety Executive (HSE) investigation found that the induction training provided by SF (UK) Ltd was insufficient, and there was a lack of adequate risk assessments for the task. HSE inspector Rauf Ahmed said: ‘I hope this tragic incident makes it clear to employers, large and small, that they need to take positive action to manage risks and ensure staff receive adequate training when starting in a new job. A significant number of incidents involving electricity at work are reported each year and sadly some of those hurt lose their lives as a result of their injuries.’
🙁 🙁 🙁

[Martin]

Re: meggers

Alex wrote:Perhaps some people should stop digging when they get up to the neck.

Easy guys lets not get too personal here. Mike has made his point and I’ve also tried to show the frailties that within the whitegoods business the problem is, for the most part endemic, throughout. Fact!

Fact to a point where I feel that personally, and professionally, I simply could give a stuff quite frankly. That those that wish to spend their day farting about with a multimeter rather than a megger or those that know better and have the knowledge and correct gear to do something with it don’t bother the use of it….so what? Who gives a stuff?

But nevertheless in spite of that I’m still up for explaining to those that wish to know, how, why and what the point of a megger is.

By the way, Engineers & DIY’s that get electrocuted?….very sad but fuff all to do with using a now megger is it…really? Far better to start a poll on how many engineers have been electrocuted using a megger eh? :rolls:

By the by, have you sorted that Candy Dishwasher adv? 8)

[Specialist01269]

Re: meggers

Hey Alex, don’t appologise mate. If this thread makes just 1 or 2 people wake up & take safety seriously then it has been worth it, I don’t know about you but I come across appliances both Commercial & Domestic left in a poor & Electricaly unsafe condition way too often for my liking. I allways thought that as “Engineers” we were supposed to be in a higher class than the DIY repairer, obviously not. If what we have said has been controvercial & rattled a few feathers then so be it.
As for Graham Dixon: He does write the Haynes DIY repair manuals but is also an excellent engineer of many years experience & 1 of the best trainers for our trade that I have ever come across. 8)

Andy

[leavemetogetonwithit]

Re: meggers

Specialist01269 wrote: I don’t quite understand why you seem to have taken this so personally when adv the engineer who started the topic in the 1st place obviously has not.

Andy
Andy,
If I had taken it personally (and I didn’t, I was just annoyed at what I consider to be a high-handed attitude by several posters) it would have been because I was once critcised on here, some years ago, for admitting one day that I had left my megger at home. (If anyone wants to dig out that old thread, go ahead, make my day.) I think it’s rather self-righteous of anybody to critcise others when they don’t know the full facts.
BTW where is the evidence for this much bandied about “fact” that most engineers don’t even own a megger?
Mike.

[leavemetogetonwithit]

Re: meggers

lee8 wrote:Deaths and injuries do occur, people do get prosecuted, it just does not make national headlines.

In Wales there is a guy who didn`t clean the boiler he serviced, it spilled products of combustion into the premises, it killed the occupants.

He was sentenced last month I believe.

It does happen.

:rolls:
So what does that have to do with electrical safety?
Mike.

[Author]

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