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Re: meggers
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I can see now that I’m gonna’ have to think seriously about getting a new pannier rack for the front of my bike to carry the two extra tools that I don’t currently (no pun intended) have, i.e. loop tester and PAT tester. Maybe I will get a bike trailer a bit like one of them wheeled suitcases that I can just unhook and wheel to the door.Very Wallace & Grommitt 🙂
Now wouldn’t it be brilliant if someone would come up with a way to make a meter that would perform ALL these testing tasks so we could breeze in and get the job done without tripping over all the various leads trailing about before we even get started on changing that door seal.
Or maybe somebody already has?
Mike.
Mike you can do a limited amount of appliance testing with a MultiFunction Tester that does insulation, continuity & loop. There is an adaptor made that will allow the use of an MFT to test appliances.Take a look at this link:
http://www.kewtechcorp.com/products/pat/patadapter1.htm
I have not yet had the opportunity to use one of these, so I don’t know how well it works.
Hope this helps lighten the load on the pannier 😉
Regards
Re: meggers
I’m not sure I should tell this little tale here but I’ve been saving it up for a few years now and I ought to tell it before I forget. As if I could.
I was called to an AEG wm which wasn’t starting up. In my carefree way (as was) I took the lid off, switched on and started poking around with my LED screwdriver (one hand in my pocket 😉 ). To my confusion I found there was live potential present on all the exposed metal!
I turned off the power and opened up the plug. The earth wire was wired to the live terminal and the live wire to the earth 😯 .
I informed the customer of the situation.
Turned out the customer had just moved into the house and the moving company had got one of their guys to remove and rewire the plug as it had to go through a hole in the worktop. I asked him for the name of the company so I could contact them and advise them not to leave such work to unqualified operatives. They said they didn’t have the name to hand. So I asked them to find out and call me on the morrow. Not sure, maybe the customer had done it himself and was trying to cover up. Anyway, they never called me.
Make of that what you will.
Mike.Re: meggers
leavemetogetonwithit wrote:I’m not sure I should tell this little tale here but I’ve been saving it up for a few years now and I ought to tell it before I forget. As if I could.
I was called to an AEG wm which wasn’t starting up. In my carefree way (as was) I took the lid off, switched on and started poking around with my LED screwdriver (one hand in my pocket 😉 ). To my confusion I found there was live potential present on all the exposed metal!
I turned off the power and opened up the plug. The earth wire was wired to the live terminal and the live wire to the earth 😯 .
I informed the customer of the situation.
Turned out the customer had just moved into the house and the moving company had got one of their guys to remove and rewire the plug as it had to go through a hole in the worktop. I asked him for the name of the company so I could contact them and advise them not to leave such work to unqualified operatives. They said they didn’t have the name to hand. So I asked them to find out and call me on the morrow. Not sure, maybe the customer had done it himself and was trying to cover up. Anyway, they never called me.
Make of that what you will.
Mike.Lucky escape – could have been horrible 😯 . I also use a non-contact tester – whilst not fool-proof it has saved me a few times.
Re: meggers
adv wrote:mmmm how much for one o them? 😆
Says £39 exc. VAT on the web-site. http://www.kewtechcorp.com/products/pat/patadapter1.htm
You might get it bit cheaper through WF or Edmundsons etc
The MFTs are bit more, starting from about £500 exc. VAT
🙂Non-contact tester e.g Megger VF2 about £15 exc. VAT
Re: meggers
that cant happen now wi moulded plugs had that. guy had got nuetral an live wired wrong. even had earth in neurtal in the old days 😆
Re: meggers
Brains wrote:
Mike you can do a limited amount of appliance testing with a MultiFunction Tester that does insulation, continuity & loop. There is an adaptor made that will allow the use of an MFT to test appliances.Take a look at this link:
http://www.kewtechcorp.com/products/pat/patadapter1.htm
Regards
Thanks for the pointer. I’ll mull it over.
Mike.Re: meggers
Just a point to note:-
This ‘industry’ of ours has little in the way of specific rules and regulations but common sense, ‘your duty of care’ (which can be applied in a Court of Law) and being professional in an industry sadly still full of ‘cowboys’ should not equate to ignoring those that do exist.
Firstly the ‘Electricity at Work Regulations’ – and before you ask they do not provide any detail of each and every type of electrical work but they are ‘Regulations’ that will be applied in Court of Law should anything go wrong.
No mention of a ‘Megger’ which is merely a generic term for ‘an insulation tester’ similar to Hoover now being a generic term for a vacuum cleaner.
What all in the industry and especially those who think being professional is simply getting things working by swapping enough parts for the fault to disappear on its own should consider is that the Electricity at Work Regulations requires those involved in any type of electrical work to be ‘COMPETENT’ interestingly it does not state qualified.
It is easy to judge when someone is incompetent but ‘competency’ is a little more difficult and would be judged on one’s technical abilities, understanding and use of TEST EQUIPMENT which in essence allows an engineer to see the useable.
Secondly the two tests each and every engineer (sic) should carry out on each and every appliance they attend is A – earth continuity and B – insulation (500v D.C test applied for minimum of 5 seconds).
In addition to this a ‘Competent’ (professional) engineer will also carry out an earth-loop test of the supply. Check out Regulation 8 of Electricity at Work Regulation to see why ‘Competent’ engineers will always carry this one out.
Other doubter should look up the HSE guidance Engineering sheet No 35 which although merely ‘guidance’ only a fool would choose to ignore.
Sorry about the lecture but the lack of technical depth that often appears on the forum really scares the crap out of those that have even the merest understanding of the dangers for both engineers (for want of a better word) and customers they attend let alone the impact ignorance has on fault finding.
Here endeth the first lesson – 👿
I await the wrath from many – 😉
and look forward to comments from the competent – 😆
Re: meggers
Techi wrote:I await the wrath from many – 😉
I’m certain no “wrath” will come from your post Graham, not at all. You’ve just reiterated what I and others have stated earlier regarding rules & regs and what little applies to our trade. Without regs in any specific trade you do tend to get a load of “incompetents” but fortunately due to the many variants our trade demands of the individual they are very quickly ‘weedled out’. And not by others in the trade but by their own customers.
Over the last decade or so the trade has settled down and for the most part in that time only the good have survived. Having said that and in the wake of the recent ‘recession’ those that have found themselves out of a job and yet have successfully fixed their wives or neighbours washing machine suddenly figure they can possibly make a living by going self-employed fixing washing machines?
As no regs apply the potential for an explosion of “incompetents” is all the more likely but again they succeed or fail in fairly short order by their own customers bidding.
Interestingly in an ideal world if our trade were subjected to greater scrutiny and that each and every one of us had to ‘pass the competency test’ much like a driving test in order to start up in business. Then likely as not we would be burdened with more rules & regs, heaps of paperwork, regular inspections, report forms and of course an annual refresher course, to name but a few things, in order to lift a screwdriver and dare to use it.
Not to mention of course the massive costs involved in applying all that. So our hourly rates would be on par with solicitors fees or estate agents commission. Our ideal, everyone is competent, utopian world would die on the vine in its first season. Unless the basic cost of buying a washing machine overnight rocketed to over £1000 maybe then we could all feel it worthwhile trying to fix them for a living? Meanwhile some prat in the regs department raises the bar yet again………and so on. 😉
Long may our trade survive without regs, we’ve done OK so far anyway. I personally don’t hold with it needing to knock on the door at H.S.E or even with getting true NVQ status as that will only bring on some form of restrictive legislation. Rather we as individuals better ourselves in the greater understanding of the ‘basic requirements’ this trade needs and for starters I would suggest we ALL arm ourselves with an Insulation Tester (generic – ‘Megger’) for starters, learn how to use it and then apply that on each and every repair job/call. 😀
Martin wrote:
Techi wrote:
I await the wrath from many – 😉I’m certain no “wrath” will come from your post Graham, not at all. You’ve just reiterated what I and others have stated earlier regarding rules & regs and what little applies to our trade. Without regs in any specific trade you do tend to get a load of “incompetents” but fortunately due to the many variants our trade demands of the individual they are very quickly ‘weedled out’. And not by others in the trade but by their own customers.
Over the last decade or so the trade has settled down and for the most part in that time only the good have survived. Having said that and in the wake of the recent ‘recession’ those that have found themselves out of a job and yet have successfully fixed their wives or neighbours washing machine suddenly figure they can possibly make a living by going self-employed fixing washing machines?
As no regs apply the potential for an explosion of “incompetents” is all the more likely but again they succeed or fail in fairly short order by their own customers bidding.
Interestingly in an ideal world if our trade were subjected to greater scrutiny and that each and every one of us had to ‘pass the competency test’ much like a driving test in order to start up in business. Then likely as not we would be burdened with more rules & regs, heaps of paperwork, regular inspections, report forms and of course an annual refresher course, to name but a few things, in order to lift a screwdriver and dare to use it.
Not to mention of course the massive costs involved in applying all that. So our hourly rates would be on par with solicitors fees or estate agents commission. Our ideal, everyone is competent, utopian world would die on the vine in its first season. Unless the basic cost of buying a washing machine overnight rocketed to over £1000 maybe then we could all feel it worthwhile trying to fix them for a living? Meanwhile some prat in the regs department raises the bar yet again………and so on. 😉
Long may our trade survive without regs, we’ve done OK so far anyway. I personally don’t hold with it needing to knock on the door at H.S.E or even with getting true NVQ status as that will only bring on some form of restrictive legislation. Rather we as individuals better ourselves in the greater understanding of the ‘basic requirements’ this trade needs and for starters I would suggest we ALL arm ourselves with an Insulation Tester (generic – ‘Megger’) for starters, learn how to use it and then apply that on each and every repair job/call. 😀
Cheers Martin ‘the super poster’ – thought I would choose this one as my ‘first’ real post. I am sure there will be more to folow.
I am still not too sure about how many posses or know how to use a ‘Megger’ but keeping the issue going may help.Re: meggers
Techi wrote:use of TEST EQUIPMENT which in essence allows an engineer to see the useable.
❓ Did you mean, “allows an engineer to see the invisible”?
If you’d like any help with proofreading future lectures I volunteer my services. 😀
Mike.Re: meggers
The other difficulty is though time.
A safety test is only good for the time an engineer has done it.
Once that engineer has written on his paper work that he has carried out the tests, time will then become important.
Nobody can prove if an engineer actually carried out the tests, except time.
If the customer drops dead on the very 1st wash 30 minutes after you left there is a good possibility that engineer becomes suspect number one.
If in 6 months that client drops dead, then that engineer is less likely to be prosecuted, as anybody could have done anything to that appliance.
Which is why very few people get prosecuted, its very difficult to prove.
And I`d bet good money that of all the engineers employed by manufacturers were surveyed this week, I`d be surprised if more than 2{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} carried out tests to every appliance they worked on.
Private individuals I`ve no idea, I do them and carry the equipment as its my company, but I`m positive its something many don`t do and even less do it right.
Then again in Europe, my experience of Spain, they don`t carry out appliance safety tests, at all and nobody dies, so one could argue whats the point of implementing EU laws that don`t improve safety.
If clients where dropping like flies sure, but there not, so one could question the reason behind the regulations.
There are a lot of people employed in implementing regs, from the suppliers of equipment to trainers and PAT testing yearly.
I mean when was the last time tou read an office worker got killed by there answer machine. 😆
Maybe that is the mistake of Europe, Spain has 4 Million unemployed, maybe if they implemented PAT in the work place etc etc, they would have 250,000 less unemployed.
Still the same amount of yearly deaths though, but less out of work, paid for by the taxes, that we pay, too much of.
My local ACS centre now run Ladder safety courses, I was asking the guy who taught it how many on the course, there fully booked thanks to legislation etc, etc, although he joked only 2 people been killed that year on ladders, both in domestic situations, but that`s HSE for you.
Ok rant over, getting back too my wine now just as soon as I put on my High visability jacket, gloves and safety goggles, just in case the glass breaks or the cork explodes. 😆
Re: meggers
Interesting point – consider – your MoT certificate, whilst valid for a year, is only accurate at the point at which it was signed – it is immediately out of date when you drive off.
Penguin45.
Re: meggers
The ITV in Spain is very different to the UK MOT, its actually tougher and more safety driven.
Yet there road death rate is higher than the UK.
You can implement all the regulation you want too, it won`t help.
There was some figures published that since the HSE started there has been no drop in accidents, deaths or injuries.
In some areas it has increased.
Even with regulation you will still get people ignoring it, even on my recent ACS re-assessment the assessor was leaving the room with the answer box open for all to read. :rolls:
At least three guys struggled to spot the obvious flue faults, simple helping them too answer is no good, you either no it or you don`t.
The amount of gas hob faulty installations and leaks is incredible, I`m for ever goin to leaks caused by pipework being pressed by the oven too close and fracturing the joints, which are usually very poorly done.
But are people dieing of this, nope, which is why the industry has poor workmanship, even the people meant to regulate it don`t believe in it, they speak it, but deep down, no the reality is different.
Techi wrote:I am still not too sure about how many posses or know how to use a ‘Megger’ but keeping the issue going may help.
Well thanks entirely to adv for opening up this thread it certainly appears that the subject has generated a lot of interest. The subject matter has deviated slightly off topic somewhat from DTI/HSE, rules & regs and even the MOT has slipped in there but enlightening nonetheless.
As so many of us realise how very essential the use of a Megger is and couldn’t possibly contemplate completing any repair job without using one, there are just as many, possibly even more of us out there that don’t! 😯
It is to be hoped that in some small way we can encourage those ‘meggerless mechanics’ to review their operating practices to the safer more effective method of fault diagnosis and electrical safety checks that the instrument provides. They will quickly realise how simple and effective it is for quick fault finding and will forever wonder why the hell they’ve struggled all these years without one?
To date my ‘Megger Test.pdf’ email requests has so far topped the 80 mark and from that I am encouraged by the response the guys have shown and fervently hope many will benefit from that. For those that may still show interest in receiving your own copy and yet haven’t got one, then do please click on my email icon below this post. It’s a very basis guide to the use of an insulation tester but in essence for the most part that’s all anyone needs for starters anyway!:D
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