[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

SAMURI wrote:The three port zone valve the old timer and the hot water stat has been replaced but the fault has still happened intermitatantly.

My friend has said it is an old system and it may be time to replace it.

I am not in a hurry to do this as I know the newer systems are not as reliable since PCB’s have been used.

This is the same in refrigeration and since PCB’s have been used you can get intermittent faults that are hard to trace.

Thanks for your suggestions I will pass them on to my friend next time it happens.

Bob

“Hello again Bob,

As You described this intermittent fault is `How is the Heating Flow and Return being circulated around the upstairs Radiators` ?

If the Heating and Hot Water Cylinder Flow and Return pipework is installed correctly this Flow can only be going through the Heating Port of the 3 Port Valve which should not be happening when the Heating is not On – this is obviously unlikely as You have had the 3 Port Valve replaced.

However if the Heating and Cylinder pipework is NOT installed correctly there is the possibility that some form of Reverse Circulation is taking place – but that would have to be because of a cause which only happened intermittently – this could be an intermittent Electrical Control fault.

It is not unheard of that Programmers or Timeswitches develop intermittent faults which cause Heating Systems to come On when they were programmed to be Off – but that would cause ALL of the Radiators in your Home to be On – and You have had yours replaced.

I am NOT suggesting that your Home has a Heating System that has not been installed correctly – but IF the Back Boiler System was ever a `Pumped Heating and Gravity Hot Water` type these are notorious for the bodged / badly designed system alterations to make them into `Fully Pumped Heating & Hot Water` systems.

On rare occasions in the past I have found `Non Return Valves` on pipework [including hidden under the floor] which were obviously fitted to overcome Reverse Circulation problems caused by bad system design or to make the pipework installation easier – this would have been done by people who were NOT Heating Engineers.

IF You do have Non Return Valves fitted – regarding this intermittent fault – it is not impossible for the spring operated type of Non Return Valves to sometimes stick slightly open – enough to allow a reverse circulation path – I cannot state that this is the case in your Heating System.

Sorry that I cannot be definitive about this Bob – it does need a Heating Engineer to visit when the fault is occurring.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

SAMURI wrote::offtopic:

I have an old back boiler heating system and have an intermittent fault when the water heating only is turned on the upstairs radiators come on.

This only happens on the odd occasion and can go a few months without it happening.

Any Ideas as my friend who is a gas safe engineer has been unable to find the fault as it is so intermittent.

Bob

“Hello Bob”,

I am guessing You are giving this as a good example of how awkward it is to `Remotely Diagnose` ANY Appliance / System Malfunction – especially an intermittent fault I can only speculate:

I am GUESSING that the Heating Flow and Return Pipework from your Home`s Back Boiler rises up onto the 1st Floor before it reaches the Pump and Zone Valves – ?

Even with older Heating Systems / Back Boilers there should be System Zone Valves operating the Heating System and Hot Water System – either 2 individual Zone Valves or a `3 Port Zone Valve`.

Without knowing anything about your Home`s layout / Heating System Pipework etc. my first GUESS from what You described is that the Heating System Zone Valve [or the Heating Port on the 3 Port Zone Valve] which should be Closing when there is no demand for Heating is sometimes NOT fully closing.

And that is allowing enough Flow through the valve to Heat up the upstairs Radiators – BUT there is NOT enough Flow / Volume of water to be pumped to the Downstairs Radiators – even a small aperture within the Zone Valve would allow some Flow to the upstairs Radiators.

This could be happening intermittently and the only reliable way to rectify this would be to replace the Zone Valve.

When this happens again see if You can identify the Heating System Zone Valve and feel the Heat passing through it into the Heating System Pipework – on a 2 Port Zone Valve there is a small lever outside the Valve Box – try moving that to the Closed position and see if the Pipework / Radiators cool down.

As I am sure You asked this to show an example of how awkward ANY `Remote Diagnosis` is – If what I described is not the case a Heating Engineer would need to be able to look at the Heating System Pipework for another cause.

However regarding this as an example of the awkwardness of `Remote Diagnosis` I should mention that there are many ways that Heating Engineers could have configured your Heating System Pipework whereas all Appliances of the same Manufacturer and Model are manufactured with the same components.

I hope that this has been helpful for checking a future malfunction Bob.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

SAMURI wrote:Bosch do have a technical department but this is only available to Bosch appliance engineers and any direct contractors.

You said there was no water in the compressor tray so this points to the freezer drain is still blocked with ice.

It can take at least 48 hours to fully defrost a frost free freezer due to the insulation around the evaporator.

The most likely cause would be ice that has defrosted and unable to run away had turned to water and was shorting the sensor plugs.

By leaving the door slightly open this allowed the fan to dry the connections.

I have had customers before describe this fault after turning off and defrosting and found the unit still full of ice.

The best way to be sure it is fully defrosted and dry is to leave the appliance off for at least 48 hours with the doors fully open and check the compressor tray for water.

As I am sure in your job you can only tell with some faults by fully testing the appliance.

Martin :boops: sorry I mean Bob 😯

“Hello Samuri / Bob”,

Thanks for your message.

Martin also stated that the 24 Hour `Defrost` was obviously not long enough – although it was 30 Degrees in the Kitchen for all of that period of time – I completely believed what He stated.

I have never doubted His advice on that point – I was just surprised that this was the case because of the Temperature in the Kitchen.

Taking His and Your advice I will be carrying out a 72 Hour minimum `Full Defrost` in the Winter [longer if I can time it to coincide with some time away] – sooner if my Fridge Freezer malfunctions again.

When I described that Opening and Closing the Freezer Door was making the Fridge Freezer Work / Not Work it was literally as if the Freezer Door had an ON / OFF Switch on it – there was no delay – not even a second.

It was:

Door Open Compressor sounding and No Temperature display lights flashing.

Door Closed No Compressor sound and Temperature display lights flashing / Appliance NOT Working.

Thanks for your message Bob – any further details about the `Strange Malfunctions` that I described previously would be very welcome.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

r600a wrote:Or !!!

If a customer wanted their gas appliance repaired then they would call you.. You would then go out and test the components and diagnosis the fault.

Soooo. Why not get your local refrigeration engineer to do the same ? We aren’t in front of the appliance we can’t see the actual fault or test all the different components or where their is frost or not.

Sorry for being blunt but help can only go so far.

Bryan

“Hello Bryan”,

Thanks for your message.

You are obviously another Member who as Kwatt described has been put off fully reading my messages / replies because of my style of writing / posting very long messages with Multi-coloured paragraphs as You have missed a significant point:

The `Strange Malfunctions` were ONLY occurring on the Day that I turned On the Fridge Freezer after the `Full Defrost` – during the first few Hours after turning the Appliance back On.

These malfunctions have not occurred since – as You know it has not been possible for Me to get any answers on here from my written descriptions and that may well be the case if I described the malfunctions to ANY Refrigeration Engineer.

You have suggested that I call in a Refrigeration Engineer to look at an Appliance that is NOT exhibiting any malfunctions – ?

I don`t think that I will be doing that.

If it was possible that Electrically Testing some components might enable a `Diagnosis` of what had happened and that these malfunctions could happen again because of something that was found during the Testing I would consider it.

But I doubt that this would be the case as I have had no suggestions on here as to what possible `Component Malfunctions` could have caused the strange malfunctions.

The `Strange Malfunctions` that I described on here were unusual enough for Me to want to TRY and find out what could have caused them which is why I Posted this thread as a separate Topic from the original `Fridge Freezer Temperature display lights Flashing` one.

Anyone would have found what happened `Unusual` – I am A Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer / Plumber and I knew that what happened was VERY Strange which is why I wanted to `Ask the Experts` on here.

I find that it is best to know the facts about what one is replying to / writing about before suggesting an Engineers visit or `Being Blunt`.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

kwatt wrote:So essentially then, you’ve not spoken to anyone at Bosch Home Appliances who are a completely separate entity to gas boilers. They may as well be completely different companies in practice.

Unlike the gas industry, there is no compulsion whatsoever for an appliance manufacturer to offer any technical support in any way to either the trade or public and, Bosch do not offer this.

We do not have access to technical documentation either.

Therefore it is almost certain that, unless a friendly BSH employed engineer reads this or, someone with a similar experience happens to read it, that nobody will help. Not because they perhaps might not have been able to but, because they simply lack the information to do so.

K.

“Hello Kwatt”,

The Worcester Bosch Gas Boilers Technical Engineer very kindly researched within the Worcester Bosch Group whether there was a Refrigeration Appliance Technical Department and then phoned Me back to let Me know that there is not.

As I know Him he also suggested that I describe the strange malfunctions that occurred after the Defrost of my Fridge Freezer in an Email so that if He found anyone who could comment on them they could read My descriptions – He did not find anyone who could help.

As Worcester Bosch Group manufacture MANY products the White Goods / Refrigeration Appliance Manufacturing Company is undoubtedly a different entity but people like Engineers in the Gas Boiler Technical Department do have access within the Group to be able to find out information like – Is there a Refrigeration Appliance Technical Department ?

I have dealt with various Companies Technical Departments over the last 40 Years – I know better than to be telephoning a `Book an Engineer` Call Centre and expecting to obtain Technical Advice – or to telephone a Company that is within a large Group and speak to the wrong people.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

“Hello Kwatt”,

I did not try contacting Domestic & General who I do deal with as I have Warranty Cover with them for some TV`s and my Sky Digibox.

I telephoned Worcester Bosch and asked for the Fridge Freezer Technical Helpline – to no avail as I was informed `We do not have a technical helpline for members of the public`.

I also spoke to a Gas Appliance Engineer who I know / have dealt with on the Worcester Bosch Gas Appliances Technical Helpline and asked Him about this – He stated that there was no-one who I could speak to that would have any more than `Product knowledge for prospective Customers`.

I was being honest when I stated earlier that I was `venting` when I described my frustration at not getting some answers about the very strange malfunctions on my Fridge Freezer – this happened on here – I would not be Venting about that elsewhere.

As I mentioned previously I have the greatest respect for the Members of any Forum because I provide a similar `Service` on other Technical Forums so I know what it is like to give up your time to help others – made a bit more time consuming for Me when I write long messages as I type using only one finger.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

“Hello again Kwatt”,

I know that this is the last thing that You will want to do but if You read back through my messages before Tonight`s few you would see that I have been very polite to Martin and before I realised that He simply would not respond to my questions I had written on many messages how much I appreciated his help.

With regard to my last few messages to Martin – because I felt that He was being deliberately awkward about my previous questions I did not keep writing how much I appreciated his Help.

I had been totally respectful prior to Tonight – and even though I `vented` in Tonight`s messages about Martin being awkward this is not `a lack of respect for Martin or the Forum` – it was an explanation about my frustration in not getting ANY answers.

I find that if brief questions / descriptions are posted in a thread on a Technical Forum this then leads to replies containing general questions that could have been anticipated – although I would not presume to know exactly what I would be asked on this Forum I could guess some of the details that would be required and therefore I try to include that information in my messages.

I participate in other Technical Forums where I provide answers to peoples questions and I know that it is not possible to answer all questions / carry out `Remote Diagnosis` on Appliances without being able to Electrically Test them – If I were asked about something like that I would state this – NOT just refuse to answer.

If I could not work out what the possible problem was from the persons description I would either not respond to that thread or if already involved I would say that I could not provide an answer – not just ignore all that was asked.

Because of my involvement in those Forums I have the greatest respect for Members of ALL Forums who like myself give others the benefit of their Expert knowledge and experience by answering their questions – giving up some of their free time to do so.

Unfortunately contacting Bosch regarding Electrical Appliances would not be an option – they do not have a `Technical Department` for Domestic Electrical White Goods / Appliances – just a Call Centre for booking an Engineers visit.

Worcester Bosch Boilers do have a Technical Department that as a registered Gas Engineer I could speak to [but not unless You are a registered Gas Engineer / Installer] – they obviously only discuss their Gas Appliances.

Bosch will not discuss malfunctions on their Electrical Appliances / White Goods.

Thank You for your involvement and messages.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

Kwatt wrote: But, I can’t read your posts, they’re confusing and TBH highly irritating. It’s as if your conducting some sort of inquisition and, that’s not what we are here for nor will we put up with that sort of attitude, from you, Martin or anyone else.

“Hello again Kwatt”,

How is persevering to try and get some answers to my questions `conducting some sort of inquisition` ?

I wish I knew what was `confusing` about my messages – apart from You not liking the Coloured paragraphs – I thought that I was explaining everything in detail – so that there would NOT be any `confusion`.

I don`t want to get into the situation where arguments develop and I cannot use the Forum so having FULLY explained the fact that I have not been able to get any answers about the very strange malfunctions to my Fridge Freezer I would like You to Close this thread Please.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

kwatt wrote:Chris,

Perhaps if you stopped using unusually flowery wording, CAPS LOCK, often WITH BOLDED CAPS LOCK STUCK ON, multiple colours and so on people might not get switched off and actually try to help.

To be honest, I couldn’t be bothered to read half what you’ve written due to the above, it’s just too damned hard. I’d be willing to wager I’m not alone.

Just saying.

K.

“Hello kwatt”,

I cannot imagine that is the reason why I have not received any replies from other Members but obviously I respect Your right to dislike the way that I composed my messages.

I don`t usually write on Forums with quite as many Coloured paragraphs and Capital letters – BUT I have been TRYING everything that I could think off to elicit some answers to my Questions.

I have used the Coloured Text / Paragraphs to TRY and highlight some points hoping that these would get some responses.

Although I concede that my long / multi-coloured Posts might irritate some people I hope that at least the RED Paragraphs stood out – unfortunately none of the messages received the replies that I had hoped for.

Personally I prefer a `bit of colour` in LONG messages – such as most of mine have developed into – to a `Wall of Black Text`.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

Martin wrote:

CHRISX wrote:
It is OBVIOUS that other Members will NOT reply to Me because they do NOT want to be in a position of either not agreeing with You or writing something that makes You disagree with them.

I can see how and why you came to that assumption but I suspect the reason others haven’t contributed may be due to your aggressive, argumentative reaction toward advice freely given.

You even argued about my off topic heating boiler scenario.

My patience toward realising a happy solution for you has yet to be exhausted so your comments as ever are much appreciated. 😀

“Hello Martin”,

I don`t want this to become an argument but I have to comment on your message:

I have not written anything that could even vaguely be considered as `Aggressive`.

And TRYING to `Discuss` points is NOT `Argumentative`.

Engineers often ask for further details about something that they are `Discussing` – but there has been NO Discussion about the `Strange Malfunctions` as You just refused to comment on them.

Also I did NOT `Argue` about the Heating Boiler scenario – I just gave You the correct information about the example that You suggested.

I actually gave You an ANSWER to your suggested scenario of the Boiler `Banging` – information that might be useful to You in the future.

I think that We should leave this `Debate` at this point – unless You wish to comment further on my previous message which I was writing when You posted your reply to Me – in which case I will then decide whether to respond.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

“Hello Andy”,

I would like to believe that You are correct as obviously the whole idea of a Forum is so that people can get a few replies to their questions.

I am fully aware that Martin / Members could point out THOUSANDS threads where a few Members `Discussed` points – but Martin had probably NOT taken the stance that He would NOT answer questions put by the OP of those threads or another Member – ?

It MUST be obvious to Members from His messages that Martin is simply `Being Awkward` with Me on this thread in REFUSING to comment on the strange Malfunctions that I described.

He has tried to put it across that advising Me to carry out a longer `Full Defrost` means that He should NOT answer my other questions.

I DID NOT REALLY WANT TO PUT IT THIS WAY – BUT:

Perhaps IF / When Martin REFUSES to answer a Members questions – seemingly out of `Stubbornness` as He has on this thread other Members will NOT get involved.

Is this some kind of `Solidarity` perhaps – resulting in what I have experienced here in NOT getting ANY replies from other Members with suggestions of what could have happened when the very strange [to Me] `Temporary Malfunctions` occurred – ?

Martin – Please don`t be offended – I did NOT want this thread to descend into anything Personal but You have decided to be Awkward with Me in refusing to comment on my `Strange Malfunctions` questions.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

“Hello Martin”,

It is OBVIOUS that other Members will NOT reply to Me because they do NOT want to be in a position of either not agreeing with You or writing something that makes You disagree with them.

Of course Members are `Free to write whatever they wish` – BUT they will NOT get involved in `Discussions` that You are participating in – this is the `Forum Etiquette` that I mentioned and I am absolutely convinced that this happens.

UNLESS You are the ONLY Refrigeration Engineer on here – ?

Your example about the Heating Engineer is NOT a valid point with reference to OUR correspondence as I am NOT questioning whether your advice to carry out a longer `Full Defrost` of my Fridge Freezer is correct.

I am NOT trying to state that You are wrong about the ORIGINAL Malfunction – the Temperature display lights Flashing – caused by an `Iced Up` Freezer Sensor.

I have NO DOUBT that You are absolutely correct that my Fridge Freezer needs a longer `Full Defrost` – perhaps 48 – 72 Hours – I have NEVER tried to contradict this – although I was surprised that 24 Hours at 30 Degrees was not long enough to Defrost the suspected `Iced Up` Sensor.

Our `Sticking Point` is that You have refused to comment on the questions that I asked about the Strange / `Temporary Malfunctions` [hopefully Temporary as they only manifested just after the `Defrost].

These were ADDITIONAL / very strange Malfunctions – separate to your advice about carrying out a `Full Defrost` to try and cure the Temperature display lights Flashing / Fridge Freezer not working.

Regards,

Chris

P.S: The MAIN cause of `Banging` from a Boiler is that there is a build up of Limescale within the Heat Exchanger – the Metal of the Heat Exchanger expands and Contracts differently from the Limescale – this causes the `Banging Sound` / perceived `Pipework Rattle` which is transmitted through the Heating System Pipework and Radiators.

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

Martin wrote:I thank you for appreciating my help. Given voluntarily whenever I can possibly afford to find the time. 😀

Martin – I have appreciated your Help and as You have seen I stated that many times – But I still cannot understand your insistence on NOT commenting on the Strange / seemingly `Temporary Malfunctions` that I described happening when I turned the Fridge Freezer On after attempting to `Fully Defrost` it.

I feel that what happened was Unusual enough to merit at least some comments as to what could have caused the `Malfunctions`.

There must have been a sequence of events / component malfunctions that caused what I described.

And as I mentioned in a previous message to You – there seems to be a `Forum Etiquette` on here that if You reply to a thread no-one else will so I cannot get ANY response to my descriptions / questions on here.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

“Hello again Martin”,

Thanks for your reply and for writing a few more details about the Defrost – although not commenting on most of what I wrote.

I `eventually grasped the Defrost details` because of the ridiculous situation of having to write Hundreds of words in messages about what happened and find out those details from You AFTER the Defrost attempt – instead of You informing Me about those `details` when You advised that I carry out a `Full Defrost`.

Something else that would NOT have occurred to Me about the `Full Defrost` is that 24 Hours in a Room Temperature averaging 30 Degrees Day and Night [All Windows closed as I was away from Home] would NOT be enough Time for the Defrost of a Sensor to complete even if there was an Ice build up.

I am sure that You are correct that there was a Freezer Temperature Sensor that had `Iced Up` over the Years causing it to intermittently malfunction – and carrying out the Full Defrost was to `Thaw Out` the Sensor.

I would have thought that whether or not there had been a large amount of Ice built up in the Evaporator the Sensor would have `Thawed` in the 30 Degree temperature for 24 Hours – OR is the Freezer Insulation so effective that it did not ? [remembering that the Temperature display lights started Flashing again after the `Defrost`].

I would appreciate your confirmation or otherwise whether the Freezer Sensor should have been able to `Thaw Out` within the 24 Hours at 30 Degrees – ?

Regarding carrying out a longer Defrost – 48 / 72 Hours – IF the Fridge Freezer does not malfunction again beforehand I will have to leave this until the Winter giving Me enough time to consume the Frozen Meat etc. – and so that I can have the Fridge not working without causing difficulties with the Chilled Food / Dairy products / Milk etc.

I will try to come back to this thread and post an Update at that time.

Regards,

Chris

[CHRISX]

Re: DEFROSTED FRIDGE FREEZER THEN VERY STRANGE THINGS HAPPEN

“Hello Martin”,

Thanks for your reply.

My Heating, Gas, Electrical and Plumbing Qualifications did NOT enable Me to know that a `Frost Free` Fridge Freezer Defrost might produce an amount of Water that would require the Appliance to be pulled away from the Wall and the Water container observed to ensure that water did not overflow onto other components.

The words `Frost Free` [and `Auto Defrost`] suggested to Me that there would NOT be any ICE to Defrost – I thought that I was attempting to `Thaw` a Freezer Sensor which had possibly `Iced Up` within the Wall / Insulation of the Freezer – therefore hardly any Water would be produced.

I have asked some work colleagues whether they knew that a `Frost Free` Fridge Freezer needed to be pulled out from the Wall enough to observe whether there was going to be excessive `Melt Water` during a Full Defrost and take precautions to prevent a possible Water Overflow onto other components:

These people were – a Heating Engineer – an Electrician – a Mechanical Surveyor and an Architect – NONE of these well Educated / well Qualified / Sensible People KNEW that this would be necessary – ALL were of the [now known to be incorrect] opinion that `Frost Free` meant that there would NOT be any excessive `Melt Water`.

As this point was NOT `Obvious` to Us Engineers – Electrician – Architect and Surveyor I suggest that if You advise a `Full Defrost` of a Frost Free Fridge Freezer to someone you make clear to them exactly what needs to be done regarding pulling out the Appliance to observe the Water container etc.

Just as Your Qualifications as a Refrigeration Engineer / White Goods Engineer would NOT enable You to know everything about Gas / Heating Appliances – I did NOT know that a `Frost Free` Fridge Freezer might produce a Build Up of Ice and an excessive amount of `Melt Water` when being Defrosted – until YOU informed Me AFTER I tried to carry out the Full Defrost.

Your Guess about pulling out the Appliance for dusting the Condenser is correct – as I have been working Overseas for most of each Year for the last 7 Years this has been overlooked by Me for about 4 Years [it has been cleaned a couple of times in the past] – although having looked at it a few Days ago there was no large build up of Dust – I will be removing the small amount of dust by Vacuuming etc. at the Weekend when I can get help to move the Appliance right out from the Wall / Cabinets.

Thank You for mentioning it – although I know that You did so in a Sarcastic manner / to try and reinforce your description that I had carried out the Full Defrost incompetently / incorrectly.

I note that You still either WILL NOT or CANNOT comment about the very strange malfunctions that occurred when I turned the Fridge Freezer back On after the 24 Hour Defrost – why are You taking this stance ?

IF as a Refrigeration Engineer You do have some insight on what MAY have happened – deliberately `withholding` your theories from Me is strange behaviour from an Expert on a Forum.

Regards,

Chris

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