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Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
LothianDomestics wrote:
We were talking about connectivity issues being ruled out from being a problem with the appliance and how I would prove it. If I connect to a local hotspot, it does rule the problem to be local if their router does not allow the connection.Easy, malicious code running an exploit. The use of Google will provide many, many examples of such things.
An exploit isn’t going to cause it to connect to my hotspot but not the customer’s router though.
Overall I think we are going deeper into this than we need to. Sure they could potentially be hacked and they will be, but the majority are going to be in a botnet doing things like spamming and DDOSing, I can’t see many people hacking a washing machine to randomly start a wash cycle though or to make people think they have ghosts. In reality it make no sense for them to mess with the controls as that brings awareness that something is wrong, it’s in their benefit to silently do their thing in the background so the customer doesn’t have a clue.
Sure you could visit, repair it and they get hacked again. That does not mean it’s all on you, just as a computer tech is not responsible for a customer getting a laptop hacked after they clean it either.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:If it connects to a local hotspot it can be another issue, easily.
LG did it and got caught doing it in the USA, they had machines set to fool the Energy Star tests some years ago in the firmware to present false energy readings. That went very sideways for them.
It’s easy to foil a test like that in a malicious code.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoofing_attack
What you think you see, what is…
If manufacturers can spoof stuff that easily do you not think that maybe a hacker might be able to do so also?
But if you root it, you can do anything you like with it. Even stuff you may think not to be possible, is.
K.
We were talking about connectivity issues being ruled out from being a problem with the appliance and how I would prove it. If I connect to a local hotspot, it does rule the problem to be local if their router does not allow the connection.
I understand there will be some challenges, I understand there will be customers not happy at what they are being told. Such is life and no different from my day to day work just now.
wilf wrote:look at your local computer repair outfits adverts “no fix no fee” so if this stuff is connected that surely must apply to us…………….. or so the bottom end customers will think. cant see getting paid after telling a customer its exterior to the appliance.
wilf
Not sure where you are going with this. Many companies offer no fix, no fee for appliances, I don’t and I’ve never once had a customer refuse to pay based on Joe down the road not charging. Carrying a computer into a workshop and it not being fixed is a lot different from actually having to travel to the customer and spend time on their premises. You are comparing apples and oranges.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
You ask how I would prove it wasn’t the machine? I’ve already said you can connect to a hotspot and if that works, it can only be a local issue outwith the machine.
Why would I swap a £300 board if the appliance was not faulty? This is the fatal flaw in your whole argument here. You say it’s unprofessional and we shouldn’t play part bingo, but then keep coming back to what-ifs when playing part bingo. If I guess at a £300 part and it doesn’t work, that’s on me anyway so would be no reason to go to court. I don’t charge for the parts I diagnosed if they don’t fix the appliance because I’ve not done my job properly, unless I clearly explained there may be further parts required and they wanted to proceed anyway.
I also don’t see where loss of contents, life or property damage come into any of this. Are we assuming a washing machine can be hacked to start spinning without the door closed? Or an oven to heat but with no cooling fan activated? I’d highly doubt it was possible to hack the individual components to operate without the usual safeguards in place and even if it was, it’s on the manufacturer, not me as a repairer. All these apps normally do is trigger an existing routine stored on the board, so worst case is they run an actual program on the appliance. Fridges can’t normally be switched off as there is no reason to do so from an app.
Overall, while you may have these concerns about connected devices, your whole post is really nothing to do specifically with connected appliances. Everything you have said covers any appliance that is being worked on so I don’t see why these appliances are different.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
SAMURI wrote:
You could end up with a large delivery of food you never ordered or your fridge could just be programmed to turn off with the loss of the contents.FYI, most connected fridges will not let you switch them off to prevent someone maliciously or accidentally doing it.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:If a client want’s me to up my skills that’s fine. So long as they up the renumeration accordingly and, I don’t see that happening at all.
What I see for the time being in this industry is manufacturer’s taking the proverbial and eating you guys to do more for the same or less.
The training benefits my company and allows me to take on out of warranty work though.
kwatt wrote:But think about what you’re saying with a hypothetical trap that almost anyone could fall into as what you’ve said is if you have a problem, you just swap out the bits.
You go to a call and it won’t connect you test but you swap the module anyway just in case, job done.
Still won’t connect, you get a recall, do your local hotspot thing and it connects, won’t connect to the router.
You blame local conditions and walk away.
Logically you’ve already said the module was faulty in a legal sense otherwise, why change it? So the product has a fault, you said that. Then you changed your mind and said it was something else.
If I were a solicitor I’d be saying categorically that you hadn’t a clue what you were doing and really, you’ve no idea what was wrong. Again, logically then, you are not qualified to comment on much of anything.
If I go to a call and it connects on my tests, I have no reason to just swap out the module anyway. If I did swap out a part in the hope that it was intermittently dropping the connection, I would be clear to tell the customer it was being swapped as a precaution rather than because it was definitely faulty.
Also, IANAL but your solicitor wouldn’t have a leg to stand on with that argument, because without the part in their posession to prove it wasn’t faulty and assuming swapping the part fixed the issue, any further fault is a different issue. Just because there is a faulty module, that doesn’t mean there isn’t also a local issue causing problems at the same time.
kwatt wrote:
That is exactly what most repairers will do when they come across these machines as they’ve no idea what to do with them, i.e. swap out bits till they luck out. It’s sad but true.Either that or just not touch them.
In the end any way you slice it, these devices are probably not good news for repairers.
It’s not the whole machine though, it’s a single function of that machine. There are certain repairs/appliances I turn away just now and if for some reason it gets to the point of turning some of these away, I don’t forecast it’s going to be even close to catastrophic for my business as I expect it to be a tiny ratio when compared to repairs not related to connectivity issues.
kwatt wrote:
Just as a note though, network diagnostics is not a case of just swapping stuff out, there’s a raft of hardware and software tools to help diagnose and pinpoint issues. If you get one that does that I suspect they’re not very good.I think you need to get out of this mindset that somehow the repairer is responsible for diagnosing and fixing ANY issues that are causing a problem with the appliance, even if they are on the customer’s network. Once you confirm it’s a local issue, your job is done unless you want to offer further help which someone who doesn’t know anything about networks wouldn’t do. If you confirm a fault, you swap out the faulty part. Network diagnostics are pretty much useless because if the machine is not transmitting it could be any part of the appliance connectivity side that is faulty and none of your tests on the network are going to find anything as there is no signal to pickup in the first place. In reality, the network knowledge required for repairing these kinds of appliances is actually pretty small.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
But in any event even if you do gain access to that, is what you’re saying that upskilling is of no benefit as there’s no financial incentive to do so and, that being the case why bother to?Upskilling is necessary because the tech needs to be able to determine if the fault is actually with the appliance and if it isn’t, explain why to the customer. If they don’t have the knowledge, they can’t do the job properly. They don’t need anywhere near the knowledge of a specialist network engineer though unless they are going to handle problems with the customer’s setup but that is not appliance related.
kwatt wrote:
Or is it just a case of the same old, same old where the repairers are expected to play parts bingo until the get lucky?From what you state in that last post, that’s exactly what’s happening no diagnosis, no understanding just swap bits till you strike it lucky.
For me, that’s not even remotely professional as all you become is a glorified parts fitter. No need for anyone qualified at all, may as well just send bits to the punters and let them do that, you’re out a job.
That’s not what I meant. If you have only 2 components in a machine that handle the connectivity and both are potentially sealed units in the sense that if they become faulty, you would replace them rather than repair anything, then factor in that once swapped there is very basic configuration likely to be done to connect it, what is the point of a network engineer?
You are also looking at these types of repairs and treating them as if they are 100{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the job though. Someone who can guess the element is faulty and swap it out isn’t automatically an engineer, it’s a tiny part of the job. Playing part bingo is unfortunately sometimes part of the job even when you have the full backup of a manufacturer as some faults can’t be specifically tied to a single component or only show intermittently and can’t be tested as faulty when you are on-site.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
In my view then, asking people to work on something that is possibly fatally flawed out the gate in an area that they’re not comfortable or skilled to do is a bad, bad plan. Cheap plan perhaps though if you can get a bunch of donkey’s to go do it for next to nothing though as they won’t get network and IT techs for the rates they pay a lowly appliance repairer.Maybe they’re not so stupid eh?
K.
Network techs would be overkill for these repairs as we are in most cases talking about swapping out a component rather than actually repairing or even properly diagnosing anything. You wouldn’t specifically send out a specialist in board repair to a washing machine as it’s easier to swap it out and I don’t see this as any different. I’d guess a lot of it as they get more advanced will also be factory resetting and hoping the customer has backed it up.
I really would be very surprised if more than a few percent of all jobs were related to the connectivity side of things in the future.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
This was displayed in stunning fashion only a few weeks where devices like these used as a botnet took down a chunk of the net…https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6027 … -internet/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2016 … /92507806/
Not fanciful. Not rhetoric. Not scaremongering.
I understand the security concerns but I don’t see this as a reason to totally discount the technology though. The potential is there to release these while being secure and over time that will happen.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:You’re obviously sold on the idea totally.
We’ll agree to disagree.
K.
I’m not totally sold on any idea to the point I don’t see any drawbacks, I just think you are looking too much into some of the issues.
Im a great believer in not sitting still expecting things to stay the same. I see the challenge of dealing with these changes but I don’t think it’s going to be a showstopper for many businesses here.
In the end, even if this is introduced into every single appliance, I’d guess the total repairs related to the connectivity side of things are going to be very very small, which is certainly true with my current experience of these appliances we see.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
I understand it just fine.I do as well so I don’t see a problem with explaining why something doesn’t work when they think it should once I find it’s caused by local conditions. It’s already part of my job for warranty and non-warranty calls, this is just an extension to that.
kwatt wrote:
I also understand customers and, I understand that whether it’s the appliance at fault or not they’ll chance it and blame that anyway. Explaining to many that it’s not your problem… have fun with that.I currently visit appliances under warranty (including internet enabled) and tell customers that certain faults are not with the appliance, so I honestly can’t see why you think it will suddenly be much harder for a non-warranty visit to tell them the same. Under warranty they are not paying and most people expect everything including misuse to be covered, out of warranty if you show them that you can connect to a local hotspot fine and as long as you understand the basic technology (which is not appliance/manufacturer specific) then you explain that it’s local conditions. Setup a working relationship with a local computer tech if you don’t want to deal with it yourself and refer any non-appliance faults over to them. If you know what you are doing, it’s another potential income stream fixing routers/firewalls to allow these appliances to connect.
I get people telling me all the time their floor can’t be the cause because they’ve “always had a washing machine there” or they’ve “always had a fridge in their garage” so ambient temperature can’t be the cause. They’ve “never had a ripped door seal” or they “always cram things into every space in a frost free” so it has to be the appliance at fault. What do you do just now if the appliance is not faulty and it’s caused by local conditions?
kwatt wrote:
What I have yet to see is a sensible use case for a connected product in the MAJAP sector.I mean so far we’ve got the it pings you one its done. I mean, whoo hoo.. what a massive advance for technology as we know it! 😉
Or, stick a big screen on it, why?
Or take photos of the fridge that’s stuffed so you can see the inside of your fridge whilst you’re down at Tesco. Again, why?
There are plenty of people who don’t see a need for an internet connected phone. I’m sure there are a huge amount of people in this forum who see no practical use for the automation you already have available in your home. This is about convenience.
Ping when it’s done? – Saves me having to keep checking to see when it’s done. It also relays other information such as what part of the cycle it’s at, what time it is likely to be completed. When we have home robots, they could be linked to tell it to empty the machine and get on with the ironing. 🙂
Big screen? – How many people have to-do lists on their fridge? What better time to add items to a shopping list than when you use the last one?
See the fridge while you are at Tesco – I’ve seen this technology in use and I think it’s brilliant. That’s not to say I don’t see limitations, but these ideas need to get adopted to evolve over time.
Further down the line there is even the potential that a customer could give you a one-time access key to remotely access their appliance, meaning you could pre-diagnose a lot of faults without/before visiting the actual appliance. Things like usage logs would potentially be invaluable for some difficult to diagnose issues if they went that way as well. Once the technology is widely adopted, it means they can justify spending a lot more expanding the capabilities.
kwatt wrote:
For the repairer they might think it great, they cost more so people will be more inclined to repair them and, that’s a fair enough train of thought… if people buy them of course and buy into the ecosystem which I doubt.But let’s stay they do and there’s loads out there.
How are you going to repair them? Where are you going to get the tech info from to even start diagnostics on them as, huge swathes are extremely restricted? Even if you do it under warranty are you getting higher rates for the extra time it will consume?
Hell we can’t get tech now for Samsung, LG, Whirlpool, BSH and more, all the ones leading the charge here.
It may well not be bleeding edge tech but, if how you diagnose and repair is all hidden behind smoke and mirrors and in a walled garden requiring specific hardware keys, dedicated support hardware (laptop/tablet) or restricted routines then you’re pretty much stuffed if you’ve not got access to that when it comes to repairs.
Hell we can’t get tech now for Samsung, LG, Whirlpool, BSH and more, all the ones leading the charge here.
Unfortunately that is the business we are in and unless you want to try and force them all to release the information to independents, that’s not going to change. There will be a lot of information that finds it’s way into the public domain just as it has already for certain faults, I don’t see that changing and you already have a major coverage here of warranty repairers who do have access to the information. There are going to be times when you can’t repair certain faults and have to refer them back to the manufacturer, if that’s what’s needed then it’s all you can do.
As for the costs under warranty, I don’t see why this technology is automatically assumed to add extra time for diagnosis. In a lot of cases, it adds the potential for more in-depth diagnostics to become available further down the line on a lot of machines such as sensor readings etc that you can’t access just now without stripping the machines down. Replacing a tub or drum is still going to take longer than most of these repairs, especially when a lot of the ones out just now are simply swapping a component or 2 that is no more difficult than swapping a pressure switch.
kwatt wrote:
Might be great if your employed or contracted by X, Y or Z maker to do it, completely useless to everyone else. And that, I consider to me monopolistic and highly restrictive trading practice that should be outlawed as it makes a mockery of the notion that there’s a free market. If it’s restricted in any way, it isn’t a free market.It’s really no different to Miele does just now with their appliances, yet I still regularly see independents recommending them and I honestly cannot get my head around that.
kwatt wrote:
New tech is all well and good, I’m all too often one of the nutters that is known as an “early adopter” but even I simply cannot see any reason at all that this is good or makes any kind of sense really. And I mean for anyone really, the repairers or customers the only party that might benefit (maybe) is the makers.All that before we even get started on security, privacy concerns and we’ve only just skimmed the surface of the challenges around repairing them.
Over time the technology is going to have to come into line with security/privacy concerns. That’s unfortunately out of your control at present and lies at the feet of the manufacturers.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
SAMURI wrote:But will it send you a message that it’s on fire or just say the program is finished ?.
Whirlpool have been advising customers that an appliance is safe to use but not to be left unattended so why are manufacturers going down the route of remotely controlling them.
It’s not like they are telling you not to leave their fridge/freezers unattended, they are telling you this about a specific appliance that has a history of catching fire. Do you switch off your wifi when you go out? If not, why should a fridge with wifi suddenly be an extra fire risk when you go out? I’d suggest it’s unlikely many tumble dryers with elements are likely to end up with wifi, it’s more likely to be the higher end heat pump dryers and those don’t have the same high chance of heat/fluff fire potential combination.
SAMURI wrote:
and in a lot of cases only the kids will know how to use it.These are normal appliances that have the option of wifi if you want to use it over and above the normal functionality so it doesn’t stop anyone knowing how to use it. It’s not a case of having to program it every time and it’s not like you need to do anything with the wifi to open the fridge door and take the milk out. The advanced features will be used by the “kids” and the appliance is used by everyone else the exact same as they use them now.
Technology cannot ever be limited by older people not understanding it, otherwise we never advance.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
kwatt wrote:
Not trying to be funny here but, I can just see half or more of you lot trying to figure out why a machine won’t connect to a antique 802.11a router or WAP or how it can’t get an IP from a DHCP server or that it can’t been seen outside as the NAT on the LAN is screwed up. Or that it can’t see the WAP as there’s a brick wall with steel beams in it in the way. Or it’s in a metal shed acting as a Faraday cage, aka a garage!Maybe you will spend an hour configuring the customer’s firewall/router, I certainly wouldn’t under my current pricing setup. Simply connect to a hotspot on your phone to ensure the appliance is working, demonstrate this to the customer and make your choice whether you offer further help on a separate basis or walk away having proved the appliance is not faulty.
Right now when I determine the customer’s floor is at fault for the appliance being noisy, I don’t offer to rip it up and fix it for them, I’ve done my job and it’s up to them to deal with the floor. I don’t see this being any different, most of what you are suggesting is not a fault with the appliance itself, it’s their local setup so it’s your choice whether you are comfortable helping further.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
Lawrence wrote:But “how” do we keep up ,I’ve done training on them but only for one manufacturer.
For the average multi brand engineer in years to come how are we meant to keep up with advancing technologies ?A chunk of the visits are likely to be user error so you just need to be confident dealing with wi-fi devices in general. Customer complains wi-fi won’t connect to their router, you setup a hotspot on your phone and connect through that, if it works then you can confidently tell them there is no fault with the appliance and your job is done. If it’s caused by a component failure, you swap it out just as you would just now with any other faulty component. In reality you are talking about only a few components that are actually handling all the wi-fi side of things. I actually would venture a guess that a simply reboot is potentially going to fix a lot of issues that would be reported as well, it is afterall a computer and things like memory leaks are more likely to affect this type of appliance and slow them down over time. I don’t see it as being such a massively difficult thing unless you are planning to get into board level repairs for this type of fault, which I personally have no plans to do.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
For a lot of people a connected appliance seems useless, but everyone has different lifestyles and needs and these appliances can fit in pretty well for some people. For instance, a washing machine sending updates to your phone may seems useless to someone who can hear their machine finish from their couch, but for someone with their washing machine in a garage, it’s really convenient to know when it finishes.
I’ve had some training on these and more scheduled for the near future, it’s something I’m pushing as a priority for our business as like it or not, Martin is right and this is the way a lot of appliances are going so we all need to keep up.
