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Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
DrDill wrote:Sorry Squadman, i dont get it, you seem to distance yourself from this repair and the company that you work for,if you worked for me i would be a little unhappy at the way you have come over on this forum, these engineers are your collegues and need advising/retraining do they not?
This is easy to understand, distance you say ?
These engineers have been doing this work longer than me, they are experienced people who through their work process have made an error. They should certainly need no advise or training from me and had more care been taken this would not have occurred. I make no apology for telling it like it is collegues or not !
The fact that this has even occurred shows that they need to revise their working practices and I have said my piece. When I worked for a large service company it was not uncommon to be sent out to jobs that had become a problem or where engineer errors had occurred and I was trained to provide a honest straightforward opinion of what had happened, that has not left me and like it or not if your were pleased or not.
It can also been seen from the outset of my posts on this that I was working through this in a honest way and I will not defend poor working practice no matter where it stems from!
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
As of today this job has been taken out of my hands as all I was asked to do was to call and look at the marks on the clothing. That said the rubber bung seal on the element is not perished and no marks of the type associated with that kind of soiling are at all evident in that area.
However the inner drum has marks consistent with the element rubbing on it, the surface of that stainless drum is blackened in several long sections of about 25mm, rubbing ones fingers over these areas yields carbon like marks onto your hand which is a job to wash off. These marks look the same colour as the marks on the wash load.
The element was badly scaled up with lots of the black coating you sometimes get. The element also has scores and tracks visible where the element has been contacting with the front seam of the inner drum allowing filings of metal to become deposited inside the tub.
Looking at the drum shaft, drum bearing seal and bearings there is nothing evident in my view that would been or could be attributed to the soiling of the wash load, The mystery to me in all this is that customer stated at the time of my call that the marks on the clothing after the repair were the same as before the repair ?
I cannot see how this could be but the attending engineer failed to ask to see any examples of the marked clothing when at the time that is really what should have been done. I am just glad its not one of my jobs that has gone like this and I would have wanted to see the initial set of clothes which were stated to have been damaged in this way before any repair work was started.When you refer to source stains I am envisaging that you are talking about stains that might point to the cause of this problem ?
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
The machine was repaired in the workshop at the company I work at, I only came to be involved as the original engineer was on holiday and I was sent to investigate what had occurred. I arranged with the customer to have the appliance collected for further investigation as from what I could see at the time failed to show the problem, I was asked to strip the machine today which I did and that is when I discovered what they had done.
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
These engineers do not work for me but at the company I work in and they will be the ones reaping the benefit as you say, the S*** will hit the fan in due course I am sure, which it rightly should ! My report is in and its no longer my worry,
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
Finally got the dreaded machine back and set about stripping it down.
the upshot of all this is that between two unsung hero’s who were supposed to have done this job, one of them failed to locate the heater element into the heater bracket ! The result was that the drum whilst rotating was at times in contact with the element and had also been rubbing on the bottom of the outer lip of the inner drum. The result being metal compound and filings let loose on the wash load. Basically a F up on our part but I had no personal involvement in this repair as two others were doing the job.I could have come back here and said a few different things but after all the help and advise that you guys gave a honest explanation was the order of the day. The moral of the story here is that complacency is a dangerous thing with untold consequences and the best of it is that me being sent to investigate all of this have become in the meat in the sandwich when I have had no involvement in any of it and have taken the brunt of the customers rightful anger. Cutting corners is not my style at all and it pi**** me off when I come across such form.
However I will be leaving the fallout yet to come as regards recompense to those who orchestrated this matter and that makes me feel a whole lot better !
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
This machine is a Hoover, I did not do any work on this appliance as the attending engineer and someone else did it all. I have however had a GOOD talk to them today first thing !!!! and it transpires that they have not changed the spider but only the bearings and door seal and tub seal. The customer was back on the phone first thing this morning as agreed with me and they have spoken to the engineer who performed this work, the wash that they done between me calling and now evidently also shows marks and now slight nicks to some of the wash load.
The machine is being collected later today and I WILL be stripping it down myself to see how and why this has all come about. No mention as yet about any claim but I won’t be holding my breath on that score !
As for the care labels and temp at 40c this customer says she always washes these shirts on either 60c or 90c ! I have explained to her that the garment manufacturer has a care label for a reason and that to ignore that guidance is down to her and not us, in the case of cotton shirts with any special finish the Garment Manufacturer states 40c.
I am sure this has some milage in it yet but first thing is to get the product back and investigate how these marks have come about, how now this machine is allowing nicks to become evident although I have my own suspicions as time goes on with this one 🙁
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
Paying £60 for a shirt round here is easy, whatever the price paid if a damage claim arrives we need to satisfy two things,
1. That we were responsible for the damage.
2. Proof of the value of the claim if provenThe fact that the customer claims wash loads were being marked in this way before we ever became involved, coupled with the fact that our own wash tests did not reveal any such problems, we need to establish how it is now that the machine is in its original location this problem is evident.
I have managed to borrow one of the effected shirts which was purchased at Next, also i forgot to mention that these shirts have a care label which shows a 40c wash temp, the customer states that as these are pure cotton they always wash these at either 60 or 90 c ? Apart from possible shrinkage i cannot see how marks would occur at higher temps
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
Out of interest did the customer call you because the bearings where noisy or because of the marks?
If you replaced the bearings because they had failed then that has resolved that problem. If there is still another problem that couldn’t be detected from the strip down then this needs to be investigated at the customers expense. It’s there machine with the problem. If the fault existed before you worked on it and still exists now, then you haven’t caused it, you are in the process of locating the fault, you have eliminated one possible cause.
If the customer feels you are the cause they need to prove that.
Actually Steve, that is a very good point, the customer called us for two things. 1. The machine was noisy , 2. The machine was leaving marks on the clothing.Item 1 has been solved, Item 2 is still in progress, the contention is if these marks are or are not the same.
According to the attending engineer he seemed to think that the marks were due to the inner drum having dropped and the clothing rubbing on the door seal and in the process getting grey rubber marks on the wash load.
The customer says that the marks now evident ( which are different to what the attending engineer thought ) are the same as they was before the work.
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
Oh Right ! Sorry late night last night but it did have me wondering,
Cannot do anymore until tomorrow when we can pick this all up again and see where it takes us. If they do put a claim forward am I right in thinking that they will need to provide a detailed claim showing Purchase Price, Possibly any receipts ? and Insurance companies normally make a reduction taking into account age of an item and for ware ?Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
Martin wrote:
squadman wrote:
The crux here, is that the customer is saying that the marks are exactly the same as they were BEFORE the machine was repaired and that the customer is claiming either the work was not done correctly, or that the original problem of the staining issue has not been resolved.Your customer does have a clear point in that regard then.
A) Thats my understanding of it Martin, should the customer make a case out of this not that I am intending letting it take that route, any adjudicator would look at the matter and see that the original fault was logged as Machine Noisey and Staining clothing. Machine then repaired Machine now not Noisey but staining issue still in evidence. You could argue the toss over the nature of these stains but I am sure it would go against us in this respect.
squadman wrote:As Neither myself or the attending first engineer was able to examine the original clothing we have no way of truly determining if what the customer states is correct or not.
Notwithsatanding your customer’s remit was established on that point nevertheless.
A) Yes of course,
squadman wrote:logic will dictate that the marks on the clothing were from a previous time that time being before the repair work or that something came via the water supply to cause this problem which is now gone, its a difficult one this.
Oh boy! Is it ever!
squadman wrote:However my Gut feeling is that this customer is honest and we have worked from them many times previously which is an advantage and proves they have been happy to entrust us to work on their appliances over time without complaint or fault.
From my experience many long standing customers do tend to take you for granted, expect you to drop what you’re doing and serve them to the nth degree yet again. And when something goes wrong, another fault occurs or another problem looms it gets ugly, they play heavily on your goodwill. Some can really be very forthcoming and persuasive and have it to a fine art.
A) Agreed but thats the kind of business we are in Martin 🙂
squadman wrote:I always treat people as I would want to be treated myself
First rule of business ethics…well done!
squadman wrote:I can normally spot a scallywag but the customers demeanor strikes me that they are being truthful but I need to prove the case one way or the other !
Tough call in this case but, you know, I can’t help being somewhat suspicious about it all the same TBH. The thing that set alarm bells ringing for me was the 10 shirts @ £60 each thing?…………….
A) To be a little more exact on this point, the customer did not quote 10 shirts @ £60, they merely mentioned that the damaged wash was made up of mainly shirts and that the shirts were not cheap shirts and that some of the shirts had cost £ 60.00, as yet no mention of a claim has been made but I would be most surprised if that did not come although at this juncture I will not be offering any compensation.
….Now who can afford to buy shirts at £60 a pop?
….Who would possibly be daft enough to wash £60 shirts in a washing machine and not take them to the dry cleaners or have the dry cleaners regularly collecting them from their gaf anyway?
….If you can afford spending 600 quid on shirts then why the hell can’t you afford to dump the old ‘staining’ machine and buy a new one?A) those are worthwhile points, these customers are fairly well healed and the types of shop they shop in I know that shirts like these can cost £60 or £ 70 each, that really does not surprise me.
Obviously the customer did not go out and buy all these shirts at once but more likely over time. How they wash them is for them to decide. The customer wanted to keep this machine as they like it and I dare say they could easily afford to buy a new machine, as repairers we played a part in possibly selling them the idea to keep the machine in service as thats what we all try to do is it not ?I think you are being taken to the cleaners my friend…..Do ensure you give them the name and address of your customer as I think they too can be added to their “long standing customer” list. 😈
A) Sorry Martin give who the name of my customer ?
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
Martin wrote:
squadman wrote:
Its a sticky wicket which I reckon we might have to accept !Well if I were faced with a potential claim of £600 for 10 shirts I would try to defend my corner. Determined to prove my involvement in the bearing change had nothing whatsoever to do with the damage inflicted on those shirts.
A) Martin I am not just giving up, but we need to run a further wash to see the outcome, if this second load is damaged then we need to strip the machine back down and see what evidence there might be internally that would cause this.
I would suggest to my customer that the shirts be examined closely by a third party, preferably by the manufacturer of the detergent brand used. So that a full unbiased conclusion be reached as to the likely source of pollutant.
A) I have already suggested this to the customer when I called, they were somewhat annoyed that I wanted to even suggest this but I pointed out that under the circumstances a third party would be the best way forward and I am still of that mind !!
Having said that, I have to agree you have put yourself in a difficult position simply by doing the repair in your workshop. Possibly even stating to your customer on it’s return that “the machine has been thoroughly cleaned?” had that same repair been done in the customers own home you could put the onus on them by advising the machine do several ‘services washes’ first before using the machine.
A) We do a lot of bearing changes at our workshop where a tub has to be removed from the appliance, there is nothing unusual about this practice and we have never had a situation like this before. By advising the customer that the machine had been run through multiple service cleaning washes before re-installation this shows from the outset that we are not only thorough in our work but also that we want the the customer to be able to use their machine from the off. Had we have done this work in the clients home and this had still occurred and not withstanding that we would have suggested that THEY run a cleaning cycle, if then they had had this problem they would still be at our door to attach blame.
The crux here, is that the customer is saying that the marks are exactly the same as they were BEFORE the machine was repaired and that the customer is claiming either the work was not done correctly, or that the original problem of the staining issue has not been resolved. As Neither myself or the attending first engineer was able to examine the original clothing we have no way of truly determining if what the customer states is correct or not. I can only now go by what I can see, what I can take apart and check, If we take the machine back in and cannot find any evidence of New Marks inside the machine such as oil. Grease or Rubber or Ink whatever then logic will dictate that the marks on the clothing were from a previous time that time being before the repair work or that something came via the water supply to cause this problem which is now gone, its a difficult one this.
However my Gut feeling is that this customer is honest and we have worked from them many times previously which is an advantage and proves they have been happy to entrust us to work on their appliances over time without complaint or fault. I always treat people as I would want to be treated myself and that has always served me well, I can normally spot a scallywag but the customers demeanor strikes me that they are being truthful but I need to prove the case one way or the other !
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
Personally, following your current procedures, I wouldn’t be ready to just accept, or in the alternative deny, anything without firstly accepting the machine itself back into the workshop for stripdown and re-inspection.
It May come to that depending on the outcome tomorrow,
The cause could be anything, even down to someone leaving something in a shirt pocket (I know that is unlikely, but it does happen). If the staining is on the shirts it will also be on the inner of the outer drum..
This is true also,
1. Did she do a cleaning wash on re-installation of the washer?
A) We do not leave it to clients to do a cleaning wash, whenever we do a job like this the machines are run through a number of full wash cycles with a load, the reason to avoid these exact circumstances !
2. That is very prominant staining even if you failed to fully seal the bearing… This does look like what you would get from a full failed (old) bearing.
A)Thats what I thought too !
3. The marks are black. Bearing grease inside a NEW bearing is clear is it not?
A) Agreed !
4. Is the same type/shape of staining on all ten shirts? If so then how
A) yes its pretty consistent on all of them
5. Is there a capability of something entering the washer from the drain-end?
A) No, its a standpipe with a trap and the drain hose shows no sign of anything black
There are plenty of questions like this that you should be investigating before just giving-up.
George
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
timdowning wrote:Are you sure she’s not trying it on? As in, these are the clothes she had in pre-bearing change.
I would take a load of whites round there put it on a wash, and call back later or sit in the van and do some paperwork.
At least you can prove its alright now!It has been agreed with the customer that she does another wash load of things like cotton tea towels and rings us Tues first thing with the result. The problem with this is that normally when I get called to a machine for staining/tearing or marking the wash load I always ask to see some examples, as it was not me that called at the outset this did not take place and the attending engineer did not see any washload that had been affected ! an error I know.
The fact is this , alright now or not will I am sure not prevent a claim forthcoming for around 10 shirts which the customer states are worth around £ 60.00 each !!! We would have to prove that the machine did not cause this damage and that the work we did was not in anyway responsible.
The local water company have also been working on the water mains in a adjoining street and they could have ingested who knows what into the main or flushed the mains on the day that the machine was delivered and installed back, yes this was a workshop repair.
Again not sure how that could be proven, IF the machine passes the next wash test without marks the customer is likely to claim that we could have left grease of whatever kicking about inside the machine as we would be a easier target than the water contractors !
Its a sticky wicket which I reckon we might have to accept !
Re: Red Stains on Clothing ?
Well a call back to this today found that the marks are NOT red but black as per the pictures and also some grey scummy marks that scrap off when you rub them, however these marks are black and you can see that some of these marks are consistent with the perforations in the inner drum. The tub was cleaned out completely and bearings changed and if I did’nt know different I would have said these marks were coming from the bearings.
Have checked the cold water supply and thats clear
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