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Re: When is Service not a Service ?
Martin The guy was a nice bloke, out doing his job more or less exactly as you have suggested, I had complete empathy with him as I have been there, done that and got the T Shirt !
As for our friend Lee8 I do not wish to be rude but Yes I am a expert in this field and make no apologies for this either ! I am able to see BOTH sides of this fence having spent 10 years working for a major manufacturer, doing 12 / 13 sometimes 14 calls a day and thinking nothing of clocking up anywhere between 100 and 150 miles a day over that workload dealing with customers some who Yes had abused their appliances, call centre promising this and that with Team Supervisors and Service managers wanting high first time completion rates !
Please don’t attempt to tell me how to suck eggs Lee8 😆
I don’t really give a toss if the engineer did go away laughing as you suggest, I don’t care if he has it in his head that he was dealing with a Armchair Expert
What was and is clear and beyond doubt that he knew from what I told him that mistakes had been made, he knew that he had to replace the motor which had NOT be listed as faulty by his colleague, he knows he or one of his team have to come back a do a tub change on this appliance, and he knows that because of my input they cannot fudge the customer on this occasion and why should they ?
You or they may well be cleaning up some indies cock-up tomorrow or who knows they may have missed another safety check before starting work on a customers appliance with serious consequences, so manipulating numbers and parts will then be the least of their worries mate ! Go Figure !
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
Well today saw the return of the engineer, minus some of the parts required to carry out a full repair, my previous guess on this scenario turned out to be correct, although Indesit Service had assured my relation that the Engineer calling would have the parts this turned out not to be the case and the poor engineer had no clue of what awaited him on this score.
Fortunately I was able to pop round whilst he was there and he was not the same engineer as previously but a nice guy who was experienced. He had been sent with a motor, selector switch to fit and had tried firstly to fit carbons but found that that was not possible so ended up fitting the motor, selector switch also being fitted that being a dubious diagnosis by last engineer, but the tub assembly needs ordering but they are no stock currently. I was able to have a chat with him and once he settled down he was more appreciative of the situation he had encountered and raised his eyebrows when I told him of the earthing fault missed by his colleague ! Mm No Safety Checks being made on calls !
So its the situation that the job is only as good as the man on the job with the girls at the service centres promising heaven and earth and then leaving us lot to contend with the outcome at source, Mm Nice !
Nothing Changes
So we have three visits for this job
Re: Repair Videos
Nice n Shiny new oven, no carbonised screws or fixings to deal with, worst of all is that although the commentary states if the fan is running then it may be the heating element at fault ?
They fail to show the viewer how to actually carry out a test on the element ? duh ! mind you if they have sold another new element on the strength of this then they will have at least accomplished their mission ! even it it does not remedy the viewers problem. What happens is the viewer make an error and fits the earth wire to one of the the supply legs ? who is liable as the video may well induce someone to have a go ?
Re: Beko fridge freeze recall
lee8 wrote:Unfortunately appliances catch fire, they always will.
Especially if they are low end budget machines, the sheds have caused this problem forever getting manufacturers to turn out El Cheapo appliances so the sheds can flood the market, all the while there are takers of this we will see instances just like this.
A neighbour a few doors from us had a Indesit Frost free appliance which caught fire a few years back, the whole kitchen, lower ground floor and conservatory was badly damaged, They did not purchase that brand again !
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
Yes I see where your coming from and of course I realise the frame work you put forward is how it operates, we have all seen how service organisations operate sometimes for many years like that until the bubble bursts, and it all gets axed and franchised out or just outsourced. You can as they say fool some of the people some of the time !
Stroke no chance I gave up that game a long time again Kwatt 🙂
It just never ceases to surprise me that this caper still exists in this day and age and you cast your mind back to the likes of Mastercare and how they used to operate, But lets not loose sight that the vast majority of UK White Goods members are Independents ? and they find the resources here of great value and in my view if someone needs to ask a question such as why a Beko Washer will not spin then why should they not be allowed or face criticism for doing so ?
There’s not a man alive that knows everything, although Martin comes pretty close 🙂 but Hey thats life !
Lets see what happens with this repair anyway
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
I would say that you can crunch numbers anyway you want, the bottom line is that sooner or later the S*** hits the fan. You have to bear in mind that no matter if your Big Repair Company No 1 or little Syd down the road without customers your finished, especially paying customers !
Seen all of what you speak of before and how scape goats are selected and dealt with at all levels ! No company can run with engineers running around not completing jobs, over ordering spares and regurgitating work which should have been completed but is then Regenerated for subsequent weeks, = Call Rate Lead Time Up, Customers unhappy, engineers still working same modus operandi, it all repeats again and again, Go Figure.
Lee8 Said
Same as Kwik Fit, slight oversight on the part of the Tech, but nothing to get concerned about, maybe to an expert you needed new shocks anyway, now had the service centre not completed the minimum repairs required for that month, that would be an issue, even if a few peeps moan, lets not kid ourselves Brits moan, lots, trading off profit against a few disgruntled customers is why in our industry they spend so much on PR and wining and dinning dealers.
Oversight ! you gotta be kidding, Nothing to get concerned about ? Experts ?
If you were running that operation and your fitter spent a hour fitting the same parts which had been fitted to the same vehicle 4 weeks before at your garage the situation would be this.Your stock would be used to effect this needless repair,
Your turnover would be reduced due to the fact that whilst your fitter was engaged in this job he and YOU would earn no money ! he could have been engaged in performing a job which would earn money for the business and help cover the fitters wages.
Where does the word EXPERT fit into this ?
Nothing to get concerned about ?
As his manager your concerns would not be raised by any of this ?
My view of this is that as Brits we need to moan, lets complain loudly as possible and where does it say that we have to accept such complacent attitudes ? Personally I cannot wait to this week to see what happens when the Experts return to complete this repair.
To recap, Customer Services have ordered a motor, timer selector and parts to repair the bearing issues. Now lets see if that is what we get, or will we get a half hitched repair with parts that should have been ordered not be sent to the engineer? or will the parts ordered not be correct ? Perhaps the engineer will need more parts and the appliance is written off ? ( the latter would suit my relations ! )
Its seldom that I would take such issue with a service companies methods but having seen what happened last week and allowing that this is possibly a rogue incident it does not change any of the facts Lee8 that Expert is not a term one could use in this case and it cannot be defended in my opinion.
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
As for Kwik fit at least they knew how to fit the shock and didn’t need to ring your guy for help. :boops:
Sorry but you have got the wrong end of the stick with that, Kwik Fit replaced the rear shock absorbers a month before, having taken the vehicle back for a tyre issue they then said you need new rear shocks. Same garage, Same Staff,
If their that stupid I thought let them get on with it, so I allowed them to spend the best part of 50 mins fitting more new ones. When it was time to pay for all this work I advised them that no money was due as the parts were under warranty having been fitted four weeks previously ! 😀
The guy at my local garage knows full well how to fit any part to a vehicle but he would not try a stunt like that. 😉
As regards the Technical forums you obviously stop by there and read the topics, are you saying that you have never learned anything from those topics.
Some how I find that hard to believe ?Lee8 Said
Maybe its an issue with cash flow, get it wrong and your stuck with a part, would explain why many independents pick and choose there jobs.Yes your right if we get it wrong we could well be stuck with a part which of course makes it all the more salient that we get it right ! If you get it wrong it will not be you paying !
We often arrive at a customers house where Mr Manufacturer has been and has either written the appliance off and we have been able to effect a valid repair or they have gone away saying parts will need to be ordered.
Recently my next door neighbour had manufacturers service to his washing machine for no heat, the engineer had gone away to order said part, he could not confirm when he would be back to fit that part. Four days later the neighbour gets a phone call from the service office saying the part was out of stock and it could be three weeks before the part was available ! We sourced the part the next day and within 48 hours the appliance was working again.
So you can see that in the scheme of things, i.e that the manufacturers own service engineers having access to all the relevant info, the supposed van stocks, the training, the investment, the call centres, the multi-driven phone menu systems, lol ! and working on a set of products which they should know like the back of their hand, they should be able to cope with all this, the reality is that there are many issues which we are all aware of which conspire against this being the case, hence my original post !
On the other hand for the Independent Repairer who has reliable skilled trained engineers, he is able to tightly control the work flow, its costs and outcome which if handled right will suit the vast majority of customers who require a fast dissapearing commodity called Personal Service !
Yes there are cowboys out there in all trades and whilst I am NOT suggesting that anyone here who may happen to work for manufacturers service is one I don’t see how you have such a low opinion of independents.
I know a number of engineers who do work for the likes of Service Force and Bosch as well as a few others, they are professional in what they do and fortunately my relationships with them is a two way street which helps us as well as them 😉
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
Both sides believe there better.
No different to my local tyre fitters who regularly slag off Kwik Fit.
Don’t even mention Kwik Fit to Me !
Tried to con my wife saying she neeeded new shocks to the rear of her car !
The thing is they only replaced them a month earlier ! On the other hand my local tyre specialist is honest and fair ! Why ? Because he depends on you to return where the likes of Kwik Fit could’nt care less.Although I have to side with the persons given the training and tech info direct from the horses mouth as opposed to the guy not given, whether that person implements them will always be an issue, its a matter of personality. But at least the employed tech has more to lose than the self employed, look no further than the Watchdog wall of shame, their faces are all over the TV yet they still operate and make money. The option most bad apples have when sacked from companies is to become self employed.
Training is only one aspect of what we do, experience is another, A Engineer who has had multi-brand experience, electrical qualifications, Gas Safe, will be more than competent than someone fresh out of the brainwashing centre, as for WatchDog lets not forget that they have over time ran features on various service companies who have treated customers badly with a catalogue of errors strewn behind not one but various engineers, probably all empowered with knowledge from the horses mouth as you put it !
I’ve just read some of the technical questions and I’m not going to embarrass anybody but asking questions about Beko washers not spinning, are they really that different from any other appliance, do they not all have a motor, tacho and a method of control.The basic theory above is all standard fodder is it not ? I would wager that any service engineer employed as part of a regional team would talk to other engineers in that team regarding problems and faults, you know talking shop.
Education would come by that route and the classroom does not impart that kind of knowledge once your out on your own.I personally would not be happy booking an engineer for anything knowing that he then needed to ask what could be the fault on a forum or for that matter a friend before walking through the door, especially seeing the consequences of incompetence.
When you were booking a engineer I doubt very much that you or I would be aware of how qualified he may or may not be. Hence the fact that the Indesit Engineer completely missed the fact that the appliance he was working on and that the customer was using had NO EARTH, Dear o’ Dear.
It of course happens in the brands, but it tends to be the less experienced who have either little confidence or there not brained up for fault finding, generally there not going to last in the job, not everybody is technically minded,thanks to Jobcentre initiatives, the military resettling and retraining programs, many are sent without any thought into this.It surely down to the company training these people to ensure that they are as you put it, Brained Up, and surely if they were not of a technical mind how an earth would they ever pass a entry test into a manufacturers training scheme of course assuming that the manufacturer had such a scheme ?
Just getting back to Watchdog lastly they normally feature people who have had many complaints made against them and they work in conjunction with Trading Standards. I don’t think for a minute that any of these idiots are typical of the many Service Engineers across the country and especially my other colleagues who sit on this forum. The reason we are all here is to work in a unified way, adopting professional standards, running a fair and honest business, many of who have been running service and repair companies for many many years, my own business has been trading for 40 years and we have a large client based business all of which is no accident. Personally I enjoyed my time when I worked within a manufacturers service department, we had a strong team who helped each other and kept a clean backyard and the training was top notch, however it was only when things changed at that company and the new owners brought in heavy handed ham fisted managers who wanted to run the engineering force ragged with far too much work, promises they could not keep, and poorly implemented call areas that we saw sickness levels rise, spares not available, spares ordered up which you knew would not fix the problem, staff leaving and a host of other warning bells that I had enough and joined the Dark Side,
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
I’m busy doin recalls/Insurance claims/Trading standards inspections on behalf of brands who have had independents, such as JTM employ etc etc and situations have required inspection, lets just say there are issues on both sides.
Agreed !
Last week a call was done after a Hotpoint Tech claimed to fit many parts to several different clients, found out he’d stolen them for his independent friend, they both planned to make a few pounds extra at the expense of the employer.This is something that has been going on for years, there’s always some smart **** who thinks he can cheat the system and many do until they get caught out, statistics are monitored and high usage engineers will be scrutinised at some stage, depending on the company it could go on for years, one manufacturer engineer I came across was selling off spares for a couple of years and had sheds full of stock being used for private work and flogging off.
I would also point towards the tech section of this site, it does not inspire much confidence in independents working on appliances they have little tech knowledge of (ducks down for cover
One things for certain, amongst the rank of members on this site are many highly skilled engineers who choose to work for themselves, they use their heads everyday to not only solve technical issues, run a business, obtain work, help others here and shape the course of UK WhiteGoods and the Independent trade, they are multi brand, multi-skilled people who do not have the benefit of being run through a manufacturers training course and being given tech updates as and when, as well as being fed daily work.
My point was that as a specific brand engineer not only had the engineer missed the safety checks, he also failed to diagnose the appliance to which he had been called to. With Indesit/Hotpoint charging a hundred quid payable upfront I reckon customers are entitled to getting a engineer who can provide the aforementioned requirements. If Manufacturers were more open with Tech Information then the Technical Section would not see so many questions, questions I might hasten to add that do not mean that the engineer asking them is any less qualified than someone else such as manufacturers service engineers who have been given that info ! I reckon your right to duck for cover 🙂 Having been trained by a manufacturer myself I can see both sides of the fence and I see more failures lately in my neck of the woods from fast moving manufacturers engineers who have little time or little interest in doing what they have been paid to do and hardly any cockups from other independents working my area,Just MAYBE as independents we have got more of a stake in getting it right as we do not forget the customer has a choice who to call as opposed to the cosseted manufacturer / franchise people going in with the scatter gun parts treatment in the hope that some poor other bugger will get the recall to fit the parts ! What I can say is that having seen the Indesit / Hotpoint Service model at work its obstructive, un-user and un-customer friendly, and from the first initial call requesting a service call its absolutely a nightmare to deal with and makes me wonder how the wider public who call them or have to call them because they are tied via a service plan have the time and patience to jump through all the hoops to get a repair !
My turn to hit the trench ?
Re: PAT Testing Question
Thanks Martin, I am sure that I read here somewhere that someone was saying that any appliance PAT tested was only valid for the installation where it was installed. Of course I am not doubting what you have said Martin but was really trying to locate that earlier post
Re: Health & Safety in the workplace
We live in a nut-house!
Agreed ! No lets move onto Human Rights Shall We ! 😉
Re: When is Service not a Service ?
A good enough reason I would say ! Nothing worse than working in a team or so called team and then having to go back on someone else’s call with a load of parts which they hoped would repair the fault. My own experience of this is that depending on how deep the companies pockets are, how call statistics are used in the case of the companies engineers, and customer complaints. The company will either go bust, get rid of the offending engineers or franchise out.
You cannot run a company with widespread incompetence and make a profit from it, not that I am suggesting the the company have widespread incompetence but based on my own experience in this case and from other customers who have found the service to be of poor quality.
Re: What is the best course of Action, Action or No Action
I will take those points on board, thanks
