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Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
I don’t subscribe to “the someone must be at fault and get sacked or punished” either.
I do think, in business, fault must be recognised and some contrition for what is a poor state of events is appropriate. I agree the sacking/punishing bit is pointless.
Reading this thread the fault seems to be represented as: (i) the customer (somehow not getting in contact or communicating properly with ISE – I’m unconvinced by this). (ii) the repairing agent not ISE (ISE make a big play of their independents so setting distance when things go wrong seems inappropriate) or (iii) Spares availability being not good due to it being a non-European made, now discontinued, machine. (I own a now discontinued ISE10, will similar comments re parts become my problem later?) Parts availability is a direct responsibility of ISE as I see it.
No, ISE should take it on the chin and be contrite. I feel you should say “the problem is due to us, we’re sorry”. A cheap “new machine” would pass any Health and Safety worries if loaners are not allowed. Almost everyone on this forum who’s bought into ISE will feel that the promises made would not mean they would be without a machine for weeks on end (and this is actually months on end if I read it correctly). The warranty has failed, you just don’t see it.
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
The point is that there’s a number of things went wrong and laying the blame squarely with any one party isn’t possible.
The impression that’s being given is that ISE did nothing about it, which is not true at all.
The Asko built machines have spares availability for 20 years after final production guaranteed and have far superior logistics. Having said that, we (UKW) are still and have supplied parts for machines at 25 years old.
At no time has it not been made clear that the old ISE5 and ISE2 machines were not in any way even remotely the same as the Asko built machines. They are completely different, not a single shared component and made in not only separate factories but countries as well.
Part of the reason (a big one actually) that the 5 range was dropped was that a number of people bought one thinking that it was just a cut down version of the 10 which is why that it was made very clear it wasn’t one.
The warranty is to repair the appliance. How has that failed?
I agree that it has taken a lot longer than even I think is acceptable, that’s not in question and apologies have already been given to Mo6 both by staff in the office on the phone and here.
The parts required have been supplied for that repair, albeit not as quickly as anyone would like.
And I would point out that it was one single spare part that caused the problem.
K.
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
Hi Ken,
Is one to assume this is the Arcelik ISE 5 and not the Vestel ISE 5-2? I know the ISE 2 was a Vestel built machine.
Regards,
Oliver.
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
Kwatt.
I wasn’t suggesting anyone got the sack over this either.
The local repair agent should have found something for Mo6 to use, you can’t tell me that he doesn’t come across machines that only need a minor repair to make them fully functional in an exceptional standby basis.I carry full truckloads of machines for recycling every day (up to 80 on a mixed load), at least 50{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of the proper makes of these will end up back in use…that’s good recycling too imo, they are out there because some people have to have shiny new stuff.
No one is suggesting that ISE should have fully functioning all singing all dancing top end machines on standby whislt a customer’s machine is down, but when exceptional circumstances such as this occur…Someone should have picked up the phone and kicked some backside and got a serviceable machine of some sort round to M06’s gaff for her to use.
If i was the repair agent i’d have found something she could wash with whilst waiting the part, 10 year old Bosch would do, battered scarred or not…as my old mate used to say when he heard people belittle someones car choice…first class ride better than second hand walk.
For one part with such a long time frame couldn’t the supplier have posted the part from wherever in the world, i get many of my tyres from Germany, from ordering online they usually turn up in 3 days (overland) regardless of weather so it’s possible.
To be fair this does seem an isolated incident, and hopefully we’ve all learned some lessons.
Is Mo6’s machine up and running now?
Lew.
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
Hi Lew,
Yup, about 40{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} (roughly) of the machines people throw out just work.
The problem here is that a lot of the service companies, it depends on who and where, don’t have the facility to deliver and install machines. I know my old service company doesn’t as they use small vans full of spares. A lot of the “old hands” that run pure service don’t either because in the 1980’s large retailers insisted that manufacturer appointed agents were not allowed to sell machines as they could, potentially, steal sales from them. So it is very, very fragmented as to who can and cannot offer loan machines which is part of the reason why that it often cannot be done.
A lot of repairers don’t have any machines basically, ever. New or second hand. It is completely dependent on the local company.
Then factor in the geography.
As I understand it, Mo6 is on farm in Wales somewhere which doesn’t offer a huge choice of service cover as it’s rural and makes it all still more challenging.
The spares thing is a total nightmare at times, especially when it’s from outside the EU and it all goes wrong. Not just for ISE either, it applies to all manufacturers.
Component producers and factories will, as a general rule, not ship a small order, they’re just not interested as the cost to ship a part worth €10 can be in the order of €100. On a machine costing (retail) even £500 it’s just completely non-economical to do so so they ship bulk orders only and, they’re shipped on a schedule as they are available on a sort of rota. We see it all the time when stuff goes OOS as I posted earlier from multiple manufacturers.
We see it from a lot of Turkish, Polish and former Eastern Block factories, China is just a complete disaster with leadtimes upwards of three months or more. So what you have to do is “guess” the useage about two to three months out, order, hope you’re right and hope that the parts arrive on time and intact.
Meanwhile, the Asko built machines are produced in Sweden with as many components as possible made in the EU so the logistics chain is a lot shorter.
But I suppose that I’m especially a bit “numbed” to this as I deal with it all the time and if I seem even slightly dismissive please accept my apologies as it certainly isn’t intended that way. But almost daily I see three month plus leadtimes for appliances “made” in Italy, four weeks plus for bulk orders from Turkey, three weeks from Poland for standard available stock, three months or more for Chinese parts… it really is endless.
As I said however, mostly people don’t see this as it really doesn’t go sideways all that often.
When you bounce up into the commercial side of things it all changes. There the cost of the appliances themselves and the fact that very often a business is paying for the shipping etc. the whole thing changes and it becomes then economically viable to pay £100 to get a part in two days from the other side of the world for one client. But what you often find there is that there is more commonality on spares and also a higher UK stockholding.
I know from Sweden we can have parts DHL’d across within a few days but it’s the only manufacturer I know of that does that bar Smeg, but Smeg charges £75 per shipment to do it the last I had to look at it a few years ago for a customer. Unless the customer or the insurer will agree to those charges it won’t happen. And, that’s if the stock is actually there!
What you will find, if you look at a lot of components in any appliance, is that they are produced by a third party. Stuff like pumps, water valves, elements, electronics, plastics and so on and they are ordered in as required in a just in time basis. If there’s a sudden demand, as we’ve seen recently with the cold weather causing valves to shatter as they froze, UK supplies dry up, factory has to order in from suppliers to fulfil the unexpected demand and the leadtime extends into weeks at best but more often, months as they have to be made.
These kinds of part are usually “unique” and there’s no alternative but to wait on them or scrap the machine.
The whole spare part side of the appliance industry is hugely complex and certainly not as simple as most people would naturally assume that it is sadly. To be honest, sometimes I think it’s nothing short of miraculous that there aren’t more complaints about out of stock parts on here than there is.
I completely understand that most people, irrespective of what machine they own, won’t care. All that the owner cares about is that the machine is made to work ASAP or that it’s replaced depending on the warranty, retailer, age and all of that. Sadly, the reality of how it all works and, to some extent, has to work is not well explained or understood by many people.
Where you get a manufacturer, insurer or national retailer loaning machines the costs just ramp up and it’s as well to just exchange as for the vast bulk of machines sold that are under £400 the cost of swapping out twice is more than a replacement costs to actually produce. Sad, but true.
K.
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
“The warranty is to repair the appliance. How has that failed? “
Oh dear. OK my mistake, the warranty this lady holds has worked perfectly and is a real success that ISE should be proud of……
The warranty on these products remains a real worry to me on a number of levels (see threads passim).
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
Nobody said that the situation was perfect, quite the reverse.
But tell me ajsdoc, what should have happened? What do you think, given explanations on the various topics, what you think ISE could have or should have done?
K.
kwatt wrote:It is a Vestel built one Oliver.
K.
I have to defend ISE, this situation is not perfect, there are faults in all areas, but Vestel machines can be a b@gger to get parts for, whether branded ISE or White Knight. If the part you want is in stock, fine but if it ain’t……….
Oliver.
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
kwatt asked:
“But tell me ajsdoc, what should have happened? What do you think, given explanations on the various topics, what you think ISE could have or should have done? “
It should not have offered a 5 year warranty on a machine where parts supply could not be maintained in a reasonable time frame. Reasonable is a term open to interpretation, of course, but this would be seen as unreasonable to most of your customers. Actually, I should only speak for myself, the time to repair in this case would be unreasonable to me.
I would hold VW responsible if my little Polo broke down and no part could be obtained for months. Why? They sold it to me and they made the promises. I’d expect if the warranty/parts supply did let me down they’d want to keep me moving, as a matter of good customer service.
Why should ISE not be held accountable if a machine breaks down and it can’t be fixed because ISE hasn’t ensured parts availability. Is it the customer’s fault?
You heavily market the reliability of the machines and the warranty provided with them. This situation is bad, why come up with loads of excuses and not just say “we are at fault”, because to my mind you are responsible for many of these other elements that you seek to blame.
You don’t market or price your products as bargain basement, and in the case of my ISE10 it is priced and marketed as a premium brand with a premium warranty. I would not be happy with the situation the OP finds herself in – are you saying I’d be wrong to expect more??
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
Lew wrote:Kwatt.
Is Mo6’s machine up and running now?Lew.
NO, NO, NO, NO NO!!!! 😈Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
I totally accept that this is out of the ordinary and a very unusual case, as well as apologising numerous times.
The warranty, any warranty I’ve ever seen on a domestic appliance, covers for the repair costs and a replacement or partial refund dependent on age if the machine is deemed to be BER (Beyond Economical Repair). This of course depends entirely on the warranty stipulations offered by the manufacturer or insurer.
What you will not find, outside a few well, actually one that I can think of, is a cut-off point at which an automatic exchange kicks in.
You won’t find one that offers a loan service.
With cars things are just a bit different. For a start the value of the goods are massively higher and they tend not to be connected to people’s homes as in, they’re mobile. But, even at that, there’s rarely a guarantee on a loan car, it often comes down to the dealership that sold it and availability of a loaner. Even then, you will often have to pay the insurance on the loan car, they aren’t generally “free” these days in my experience. In fact I can’t even recall seeing a guarantee of how quickly parts would be available and I have personally experienced non-availability on a part for a month for a car, under three years old.
Ultimately there is a responsibility on the part of ISE, I agree and, from what I can see nobody has disputed that. What I have tried to explain is why it happened as asked and/or prompted.
You ask if it’s the customer’s fault, of course it isn’t.
Is it ISE’s fault, some of this yes, some of it no.
Is it ISE’s fault that a batch of parts get water damaged in transit?
Is it a good thing that ISE don’t send out parts when they know they may be faulty?
Is it ISE’s fault that a component supplier takes so long to produce a batch of parts?
Is it ISE’s fault that nobody tells them there’s a problem?
As soon as there was an issue identified they did as much as they could as fast as they could. What more could they do?
The reliability of the machines is promoted on the ISE10 range, yes.
You will not see a “designed to last 10,000+ cycles” on any of the other machines because they are not designed for that sort of use, something that ISE has tried to make very, very clear.
But I don’t get what it is that you actually expected ISE to do above what has been done and I don’t know what you expect ajsdoc. Can you perhaps be a little clearer in terms of precisely what you would have expected to happen? That is of course, if we haven’t already covered it.
Mo6, the parts are with the repairer. If you’ve not heard from him by Monday lunchtime please let David in the office know as I know you’ve been speaking to him.
K.
You know I like others in the repair side of the business have been sat watching this and like a number of them probably thinking, you know what if this was most of the normal big brands these people would have gotten nowhere and could not even have had this conversation.
Usually most manufacturers don’t give a stuff. At least Ise seem to be doing all that they can.
I should direct a customer of nine here who has been waiting on parts for her not working fridge since November last year from a certain Korean maker. Things like this do happen and theres really not much anyone can do beyond apologise and try to sort the problem as fast as they can.
But I’ve done a couple of jobs for Ise and never had a problem and have not seen very many complaints about parts either.
I have to say though with six kids and being on a farm that machine must be taking a pounding.
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
In answer to kwatt’s direct question to me, I would expect ISE not to offer a warranty if timely parts availability could not be assured (I imagine in the initial contract to build machines this is negotiated). I’m probably naive, and expect a long response explaining how naive I am.
If something went wrong (I accept that things sometimes do), and parts could only be made available in a ridiculously long timescale – I’d expect good customer service to put the customer back to the position of being able to wash clothes in the interim. People buy ISE because of the reliability and warranty!
It’s maybe pie in the sky, but it seems reasonable enough to me. The reason I bought ISE was they set themsleves to stand separate from the rest of the crowd. High quality machines, a top notch warranty, excellent service from a network of independents in the unlikely event of something going wrong. I still think, despite this ludicrous thread, that this is what ISE wants to provide. Instead, the blame (and by blame I mean responsibility) is being passed all around – sorry, but that’s how it seems.
I actually feel it’s incumbent on manufacturers to ensure parts availability, especially within the period of a warranty. I don’t like the blame being passed to third party manufacturers in that instance.
I feel really sorry for the OP, that’s all.
Re: ISE5 Broken down for weeks and no one seems to care?????
I too have been watching this thread with interest.
I have over 300 ISE machines on my area of all types from the humble ISE2 to the ISE 10’s.
The longest any one of my customers has had to wait for a part was nine days, and that was for a complete inner drum assembly. In 99{e5d1b7155a01ef1f3b9c9968eaba33524ee81600d00d4be2b4d93ac2e58cec2d} of cases the repair has been completed within two or three days of receiving the call.
Like most other trade members I have several Hotpoint/Indesit machines ( five in total ) waiting for replacement fill valves due to frost damage, all from before Christmas.
Over the years I have waited many months for parts for Zanussi, Bosch and other well respected manufacturers. I have a part on order now for a Hoover washing machine going back almost three months. 😥
It is a very unsatisfactory situation but I can think of no other manufacturer or large repair agent that would discuss the matter as openly as ISE has done in this instance.
They could quiet easily have deleted this and any subsequent threads and conducted business behind closed doors. The fact they have chosen not to do so speaks volumes for their basic integrity. 8)
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