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Re: IOT enabled Engineers
LothianDomestics wrote:An exploit isn’t going to cause it to connect to my hotspot but not the customer’s router though.
You just underlined a point I was making.
That is exactly what happens with such an exploit although you may not see it that way, it’ll connect to a local LAN/WLAN and possibly may or, possibly may not see other web servers locally but won’t when it goes to the WAN.
You create a local hotspot, in effect a small local WLAN and see it but you’re not testing outside that bubble.
You may then jump the net though and then see a problem. Depends what it is and the purpose of it.
But it isn’t a case of they can be hacked, stuff out there HAS been hacked already and now Mr Samsung et all want people to put their payment details in there for shopping online… really?
Just for fun some little snotty teenager in Croatia might decide to poke fun one day and run a code that makes them all stop cooling, just for a laugh. Or switch and lock it to defrost.
Just make them unresponsive.
Or just steal all the details on it and sell that off or even do that, then cover it by shutting them all down.
There are people out there that will do that sort of thing just for kicks or to prove that they can. Such things have been seen many, many times on many platforms.
Connect these tings to the like of an Amazon account and grab those account details and it’s a license to print money to criminals.
I was told that a Samsung one at a training thing was hacked in less than five minutes using free to download open source tools. Great security eh?
And no the computer tech may well not be responsible but, if proper security measures are advised and implemented it shouldn’t happen again. If the customer doesn’t follow those instructions well that’s on them. If the tech didn’t advise on security then I’d be surprised but, on them.
What can a lowly, unqualified and largely ignorant of the technologies involved person advise what the customer should do to secure their connected appliances?
And that’s the big difference here that I have tried to highlight, appliance technicians have not got the skill set to advise correctly. But, they’re operating with their legs chopped off as the things are so insecure anyway. You can’t even tell the customer to install anti-virus or swap ports about etc as you can’t on most I’ve seen.
You might guess that I don’t swallow the corporate BS on this stuff as it is just that IMO, BS as they seem to think it’s all unicorns and rainbows when, it ain’t.
K.
Re: Confusion using advanced search
There was a thread on this ages ago but, to summarise it…
The search is flawed and will be always as there’s just so many similar terms, even when specific words are used in conjunction like that as it’s not all that smart a search engine.
To get a better search engine we’d have to build one or use Google.
Building one isn’t an option for what is a free service as it’d take a ton of time and resource to do it.
To use Google you’d lose all privacy across the trade forums and all posts would be searchable in Google. So, not an option.
All you can do is try combinations at times like instead use “neff warming drawer” then try the + in front and see what comes up. Sadly though it’s not clever enough to recognise multiple posts in the same thread, hence back to there being so many similar terms.
It’s a bit of a nightmare that to be honest and I’d love to do something about it but, in practical terms, there’s really not much we can do realistically to make it better.
K.
Re: Global Asian Appliances oven
Not really.
It’s an el cheapo Cata thing that you can get bits for here:
http://www.spareszone.co.uk/EFA60BKM-EF … e-fan-oven
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
LothianDomestics wrote:We were talking about connectivity issues being ruled out from being a problem with the appliance and how I would prove it. If I connect to a local hotspot, it does rule the problem to be local if their router does not allow the connection.
Easy, malicious code running an exploit. The use of Google will provide many, many examples of such things.
Given the laughable security on most of these things that is by no means even remotely far fetched just as you would perhaps have seen where Windows machines are exploited to disallow a web connection to elicit payment but you can still access LAN/WLAN devices, known as ransomware commonly.
Then as you say, the cure from your perspective is to just swap the board/s. That will clear it or it should do at any rate.
What do you do when you get a recall if/when it happens again?
Probably though a bigger issue is around getting the feature set to work for the customer on their device/s which could be a bit of a challenge depending on how it’s implemented. Then you get into the vagaries of what device they’re using, what browser or app and so forth and I guess a part of what I go on about with these products is that the appliance industry is just not geared to support that as they do interact with other tech. I strongly expect most wouldn’t have much idea of what devices and/or software plays nice with others.
If your contractually obliged to look at this stuff then all you can do is, as you appear to be saying, run in, kick the tyres, bail out if it works. If it doesn’t swap the boards and run.
If that solves the problem, great.
If not, tough, it’s the customer’s problem.
To my mind that’s not exactly a great service and if I called in an “expert” I expect them to be able to do their job and resolve the issue or to be able to tell me what is the problem and how to best remedy it. If that means another expert in a different field fair enough but, if you give that advice you really need to be sure that you are giving the right advice.
I believe one of the issues here is the perception of the customer as they’ll just see this as your problem as it’s the device that’s the problem since it’s not doing whatever it should. With your flooring example which is good enough, it’s easy enough to explain to the customer and demonstrate what the problem is even although they may take some convincing. With this stuff it’s a lot harder to explain and if you’ve not the knowledge to do so then that could get harder still especially as you probably wouldn’t be able to demonstrate where the problem lies. Sure, you could say, “look at that it works there” but that doesn’t resolve the issue in the eyes of the customer.
Throw into this that the people that will be buying these boxes for the time being are highly probable to be tech savvy and know more about it than you do and, probably more than you ever will. Holding a debate on where the problem is won’t be a whole heap of fun.
If you’re happy fixing them though knock yourself out but for me, I wouldn’t want to be or most certainly not at standard rates and I sure as shoot wouldn’t want to be selling them, too much exposure IMO.
If I were fixing them I’d also make it clear that in relation to connected product with issues around this stuff, do not send me a job with the word “recall” on it as it will be rejected and sent right back.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
If it connects to a local hotspot it can be another issue, easily.
LG did it and got caught doing it in the USA, they had machines set to fool the Energy Star tests some years ago in the firmware to present false energy readings. That went very sideways for them.
It’s easy to foil a test like that in a malicious code.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoofing_attack
What you think you see, what is…
If manufacturers can spoof stuff that easily do you not think that maybe a hacker might be able to do so also?
But if you root it, you can do anything you like with it. Even stuff you may think not to be possible, is.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
I don’t think you’re getting this. No offence intended at all, it’s a good conversation and worthwhile having.
Okay so I’m trying to show how complex this actually is or can be.
A solicitor won’t give a stuff about the truth, only what they want to prove. Ditto the customer with a claim and, if you get steam rolled and thrown under the bus to make that happen then, so be it in their eyes.
Your opinion is what they will try to devalue and/or discredit. Over a £4.5K or more fridge it may just come to it, far more likely than a £200 washer.
They don’t need hard evidence to do that. Trust me, I know this all too well, on both sides.
You say it’s one function of the machine but is it really? That module or control system has open comms with every function of the machine. As Bob pointed out, hacked it can be instructed to do something it’s not supposed to so, you can be sent on a wild goose chase looking for faults that don’t even exist.
Customer just has a duff machine and perhaps a claim for God knows what all even supposing it doesn’t cause major harm to contents, property or life.
Ramp that up to a massive breach, like Sony had not so long ago, and you’re looking at a monumental problem. If they flog any of these things of course.
Which gets me to, the cost of adding connectivity to a dumb device, about $5-10 roughly. If that’s the case then why are the £100’s of more? Only reason I can see is that it’s to pump up margins. Is that in the interest of consumers for features that, as we’ve already said, are very limited unless you have robots to load/unload the products, auto-dosing and refill etc, etc, etc.
Customers though won’t give a stuff who’s at fault, all they want is it fixed. The X/Y/Z appliance doesn’t work, fix it. It’s your problem, the manufacturer’s problem, the retailer’s problem… anyone’s problem bar theirs.
Yes we all know it’s back to your flooring things etc and we’ve all seen the same arguments had over that sorta stuff too but that’s not the point, it’s the hassle it creates and grief you get over it and, you’ve got to be able to demonstrate that it’s not the machine. Back to, can you do that? Can you *PROVE* that it isn’t the appliance and, how will you do that?
Simple, swap the boards, say a little prayer, hope it all comes right and you’re back to.. well, you don’t really know if that doesn’t fix it.
Under warranty it’s likely to largely be the manufacturer’s risk.
Insurance, an insurance company’s risk but it won’t take much before they load the plans/policies or refuse to cover.
OOW, it’s all on you. You carry all the risk.
And that last point, yes it is on you to correctly diagnose and repair the problem IMO. If you don’t, you’re not doing the job you’re paid to do so, instant breach of contract and the customer can quite rightfully and legally refuse to pay you.
Even if you swapped out a £300 board.
Have fun with that.
K.
Re: New Fridge Freezer Miele Worth it?
Well, the Miele is a Liebherr and they really do not give trouble normally. Very rarely in fact.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
If a client want’s me to up my skills that’s fine. So long as they up the renumeration accordingly and, I don’t see that happening at all.
What I see for the time being in this industry is manufacturer’s taking the proverbial and eating you guys to do more for the same or less.
But think about what you’re saying with a hypothetical trap that almost anyone could fall into as what you’ve said is if you have a problem, you just swap out the bits.
You go to a call and it won’t connect you test but you swap the module anyway just in case, job done.
Still won’t connect, you get a recall, do your local hotspot thing and it connects, won’t connect to the router.
You blame local conditions and walk away.
Logically you’ve already said the module was faulty in a legal sense otherwise, why change it? So the product has a fault, you said that. Then you changed your mind and said it was something else.
If I were a solicitor I’d be saying categorically that you hadn’t a clue what you were doing and really, you’ve no idea what was wrong. Again, logically then, you are not qualified to comment on much of anything.
That is exactly what most repairers will do when they come across these machines as they’ve no idea what to do with them, i.e. swap out bits till they luck out. It’s sad but true.
Either that or just not touch them.
In the end any way you slice it, these devices are probably not good news for repairers.
Probably not great news for makers either if they get hacked and told to do something they shouldn’t but, that ain’t my problem.
Just as a note though, network diagnostics is not a case of just swapping stuff out, there’s a raft of hardware and software tools to help diagnose and pinpoint issues. If you get one that does that I suspect they’re not very good.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
I do see where you’re coming from but, how would you know that with no access to technical info or training?
But in any event even if you do gain access to that, is what you’re saying that upskilling is of no benefit as there’s no financial incentive to do so and, that being the case why bother to?
Or is it just a case of the same old, same old where the repairers are expected to play parts bingo until the get lucky?
From what you state in that last post, that’s exactly what’s happening no diagnosis, no understanding just swap bits till you strike it lucky.
For me, that’s not even remotely professional as all you become is a glorified parts fitter. No need for anyone qualified at all, may as well just send bits to the punters and let them do that, you’re out a job.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
Thus far the history teaches otherwise.
Failure to update firmwares, cannot be done on many and cannot be done by many owners all with the risk of bricking the device.
Samsung fridges among others, already seen.
Compromised services, no longer supported. Already seen on numerous smart products including a raft of smart TVs and Samsung IoT fridges. Reported by Which? as well as on here.
Poor security and some want to launch shopping services! No way would I put CC details into any of these things, like ever. They’re far too insecure.
For many the only way to update them appears to be swapping out the chipset in them so, cost to consumer as the manufacturer won’t pony up for it I expect. New module/s in effect.
Do I trust that many manufacturers take this seriously or are likely to, not even slightly as to date there’s no evidence at all to say that they do, plenty to say they don’t.
In my view then, asking people to work on something that is possibly fatally flawed out the gate in an area that they’re not comfortable or skilled to do is a bad, bad plan. Cheap plan perhaps though if you can get a bunch of donkey’s to go do it for next to nothing though as they won’t get network and IT techs for the rates they pay a lowly appliance repairer.
Maybe they’re not so stupid eh?
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
I have many issues with IoT products, many not even in the MAJAP sector as most are next to useless and/or pointless. They deliver little to no real world benefit to consumers. For a number, the contrary is true, they can in fact be detrimental.
I am very concerned about the security of them and by extension the safety of them. Especially so when you couple that with the limited (if any) benefits that are promised.
Whizz bang, look what I can do and a month or two later half the stuff will ever be used on many I expect given the limited feature set and poor use case. But, they’re still connected, can still be compromised.
This was displayed in stunning fashion only a few weeks where devices like these used as a botnet took down a chunk of the net…
https://www.technologyreview.com/s/6027 … -internet/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2016 … /92507806/
Not fanciful. Not rhetoric. Not scaremongering.
Poor security, poor long term support and so forth, it will happen again, nothing surer.
Yes I agree, technology should advance and I’ve no truck with that whatsoever but there are a number of instances where adding tech, often just for the sake of it, only serves to complicate things and make them compromised. I think connected appliances are such.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
LothianDomestics wrote:Technology cannot ever be limited by older people not understanding it, otherwise we never advance.
I understand it just fine.
I also understand customers and, I understand that whether it’s the appliance at fault or not they’ll chance it and blame that anyway. Explaining to many that it’s not your problem… have fun with that.
To demonstrate where I’m coming from here, I have a home that is hugely automated, with fully automatic motion sensing lighting, remotely controllable as well as heating, multiple servers and so forth so, understanding the technologies involved and so forth is not any issue to me whatsoever. I built it and programmed a ton of it. And, I know it can break and, can be a bit of a pig to track down where problems lie.
The tech in the MAJAP sector is, to be candid, not exactly bleeding edge stuff.
What I have yet to see is a sensible use case for a connected product in the MAJAP sector.
I mean so far we’ve got the it pings you one its done. I mean, whoo hoo.. what a massive advance for technology as we know it! 😉
Or, stick a big screen on it, why?
Or take photos of the fridge that’s stuffed so you can see the inside of your fridge whilst you’re down at Tesco. Again, why?
For the repairer they might think it great, they cost more so people will be more inclined to repair them and, that’s a fair enough train of thought… if people buy them of course and buy into the ecosystem which I doubt.
But let’s stay they do and there’s loads out there.
How are you going to repair them? Where are you going to get the tech info from to even start diagnostics on them as, huge swathes are extremely restricted? Even if you do it under warranty are you getting higher rates for the extra time it will consume?
Hell we can’t get tech now for Samsung, LG, Whirlpool, BSH and more, all the ones leading the charge here.
It may well not be bleeding edge tech but, if how you diagnose and repair is all hidden behind smoke and mirrors and in a walled garden requiring specific hardware keys, dedicated support hardware (laptop/tablet) or restricted routines then you’re pretty much stuffed if you’ve not got access to that when it comes to repairs.
Might be great if your employed or contracted by X, Y or Z maker to do it, completely useless to everyone else. And that, I consider to me monopolistic and highly restrictive trading practice that should be outlawed as it makes a mockery of the notion that there’s a free market. If it’s restricted in any way, it isn’t a free market.
New tech is all well and good, I’m all too often one of the nutters that is known as an “early adopter” but even I simply cannot see any reason at all that this is good or makes any kind of sense really. And I mean for anyone really, the repairers or customers the only party that might benefit (maybe) is the makers.
All that before we even get started on security, privacy concerns and we’ve only just skimmed the surface of the challenges around repairing them.
But heh, whatever floats your boat I guess.
K.
Re: IOT enabled Engineers
Just ignoring the obvious like appliances should be running completely remotely like that as it’s asking for trouble…
Here’s the big thing…
Manufacturers are trying to sell this sh.. sorry, stuff.
They need to pump up the revenues and hopefully profits until the cheapo boys catch up and scythe the margin out it and this would appear to be the strategy to do that.
Now to get there they need to see it. They need to sell it to the punters, some of who will buy into this but I suspect most won’t. But they also need to sell the idea to you guys to make you think it’s a good idea and, they really need to sell the retailers on it so they flog it.
If the support is crap then the retailers will switch off as, it then becomes more hassle than its worth.
Bottom line being that, in my opinion, all have an uphill battle to convince everyone in the chain that this is worth the bother. Brainwash everyone basically.
But that’s before you even get into the minutia of how you get it fixed when it breaks or doesn’t work.
Not trying to be funny here but, I can just see half or more of you lot trying to figure out why a machine won’t connect to a antique 802.11a router or WAP or how it can’t get an IP from a DHCP server or that it can’t been seen outside as the NAT on the LAN is screwed up. Or that it can’t see the WAP as there’s a brick wall with steel beams in it in the way. Or it’s in a metal shed acting as a Faraday cage, aka a garage!
Then there’s the ones, like Samsung that you *NEED* to use an Android device to set it up with, you cannot do it with an iOS one.
And yes, I was very deliberately trying to demonstrate that it won’t take much to lose most of you with this stuff at all.
And the solution for many will be, change the module as that’s the obvious thing to do when you don’t understand it. Only that won’t solve any of the problems above, not at all.
I do know that the above may well seem harsh and, so be it if anyone has a problem with it but I see things from both sides of the coin and I can just envisage what’s going to happen, with not too much doubt I’ll be too far wrong.
Punters will just bin them. You won’t even get a sniff at repairing them which isn’t good for repairers.
I’m sorry but I really can’t see many, if any, positives from connected products and I’ve yet to see any sort of decent argument to support them.
K.
Re: SIEMENS WT46W56CGB iq700 possible faulty fan
We don’t even see those much of the time…
http://www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/help/fix- … ce-manuals
K.
