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Re: work dead
its been patchy for the last three weeks, ticking over as they say but nothing spectacular ! Mind you if we have no fuel then what ?
Re: Working on Dual fuel range cooker – Gas Safe registered?
Those measurements are standard practice and recorded on our job sheets which the client and company retain. Its just like the MOT Test, it passed upon testing, a week later it might fail.
The criteria being that if it can or could be established at a later date that a fault would have been evident at the time of testing or something had happened during the work or testing that the tester would have or should have noticed then it would be reasonable that the tester was negligent. If the tester is proven to be competent, fully trained and maintains accurate Safety Data that would assist his case, for the chuck it and chance it chaps who hope that it will be alright on the night well that would be a different story me thinks .
Re: Working on Dual fuel range cooker – Gas Safe registered?
Changing Elements, Thermostats and the like is not the challenge, the problem stems from the Potential Risks associated with the work, vis you changed a Circa Therm Element, no different to changing one on a Electric Cooker, then subsequently there is a Gas Leak on the appliance or worse still something more serious.
Joe Blogs the customer will say that it was all fine BEFORE YOU worked on the appliance and it must be something you done or did’nt do that brought the Fault into existence, I am sure that courts and judges look at what was reasonable to make court decisions and I am sure that our friend Jackal could put us straight here.
Because there exists a Potential for a serious outcome and no matter if you are qualified or not, the fact that you were the last person who touched the Gas Appliance the finger of guilt would be pointing at any engineer in that situation and the small amount of short term gain from doing such a job would be outweighed by a jail sentence or loosing your house? Scaremongering ? who knows but personally its a risk that is a no brainer to me. In these days of litigation and No Win No Fee Law Firms I think those that work in such a fashion are open season for such firms. Without the proper PLI in place to cover you in the event of being unlucky
its such a grey area which only serves to elevate the risks.Re: Working on Dual fuel range cooker – Gas Safe registered?
The issue is not if you are confident or not but if you are in the eyes of the law qualified to perform the work. No engineer qualified or not sets out to cause damage to the gas parts of a cooker but i think what Martin has said is very relevant to this whole discussion. I think there are those who are on thin ice as far as this matter goes and its ultimately down to the engineer to access the risk and legal implcations of their actions.
Re: Working on Dual fuel range cooker – Gas Safe registered?
lee8 wrote:I wish I had a £ for every time this question comes up and non Gas safe people keep sprouting on about Gas Safety and how dangerous it is.
Just out of interest Lee are you Gas Safe Registered ?
If I had a pound for all the dead householders I find I’d be very poor.
[i]You need only one dead householder or loss of Property to become very poor !
Any person not trained in Gas Safety etc etc will not be prosecuted for working on the Electric side of a dual appliance unless they break into the supply of gas, alter/remove/disconnect any gas carrying or related components.Any person working as a company would be deemed that they would have or should have known the risks and correct testing procedures whilst carrying out any work on a Gas Appliance even it the job you were doing was of a electrical nature , in the event that a fatality or explosion occurred after you had attended a Gas appliance you would be held responsible and thus face the real prospect of ending up in court and I cannot understand how you would not understand this.
The same goes for anybody working within a kitchen or any location that has a Gas appliance, boiler, fire etc etc who is not qualified, will not be prosecuted for not spotting the signs of spillage, poor ventilation or incomplete combustion etc etc even if the next day that householder drops dead.[i]Hardly the same thing Lee ? By working on say a dishwasher in a kitchen it would not be reasonable to expect that you would be held to account for any other appliance that happened to be in that location !
Re: Working on Dual fuel range cooker – Gas Safe registered?
funkyboogy wrote:
ultimately if something does go wrong and you are standing in front of a jury who a clueless to the finer workings of dual fuel – they will deem you as the last person to touch the appliance.
ally
Seriously if you found yourself in court a jury would be guided by an expert in the subject, with a expert witness testifying against you I am sure that you would crumble as any arguments would show someone untrained to be exactly that.
Re: Working on Dual fuel range cooker – Gas Safe registered?
Having read through the various comments and views here and looking at the regulations in place and also what how the Law would apply my best practice is this and my staff and engineers are aware of this mandate as of today: Having discussed this with a Gas Safe Company whom I happen to be friends with I have decided to pass all Duel Fuel Appliances over to them based on a commission basis, this way they assume all the legal responsibility and I still earn something out of it,the risks and implications are too great to take chances with and whilst ceasing to do work on such appliances will cause a small loss financially it will not expose us to the risks that whilst remote they remain possible at any time: Lets not forget the Gas Safe engineer in the Daily Mail recently who is now serving a four year jail term for his errors ! and he had all the relevant paperwork in place:
The Law on Working on Gas AppliancesQuestion : What certificates/training would do I need to be able to work on gas cookers
Answer: To become qualified you’ll need to sit
CCN1-Core Domestic Gas Safety Criteria,
CKR1-Install, Exchange,Disconnect, Service, Repair, Breakdown and Commission Domestic Gas Cooking Appliances.Question: If I am fitting a non Gas Part like an Oven Element can I disconnect the flexable hose coupling.
Answer: The Gas Safe Register States:
Technical Bulletin number 25 dated 10/12/2010
The disconnection/reconnection ( at the same location ) of a self sealing appliance connector following installation is not deemed “gas work” and therefore may be carried out by non registered person(s), for example, when a home owner temporarily removes the cooker when cleaning. However when any person who is at work, disconnects or reconnects a self sealing connector they must be competent to a level that will ensure that the installation is not allowing gas to escape.
If you are not Gas safe registered, and are working at a customers house, you cannot disconnect a bayonet fitting from a gas cooker to effect a repair. The customer can disconnect the hose and then reconnect it after you are finished with the electrical side of the appliance. In any event : If You Were The last engineer to touch the Gas Appliance and something goes badly wrong and you dont have Gas Safe registration (even if only doing a electrical Job) you could well find yourself being sued for damage or Manslaughter:
By not being gas trained/qualified/proficient you are NOT in a position to correctly test the full functionality of the appliance. NOT qualified to check that the appliance and the room in which it stands is correctly ventilated. NOT able to carry out basic manometer leak tests. NOT able to provide the user/customer with a written ‘safety report’. Do NOT have to powers to isolate the gas supply should any of the above be deemed unsafe.
Also be aware that any Public Liability Insurance you have would be null and void in the event of any claim against you as you would be deemed not qualified or competent to have performed the work in the first instance:
Remember it’s not worth the Risks involved as there is no second chance with Gas
Thanks to Martin and other contributors here for their input, as I see this whatever the WTA, HSE, Gas Safe say or do not say the above sums up where those who are not qualified stand in the repair of Duel Fuel Appliances:
Re: Most outrageous.
Had a really nice lady a few weeks back who had only moved into the area about a year ago, her fridge freezer had developed a fault about four months back and she had called another engineer out who operates in a adjacent area to me. He diagnosed that the thermostat had failed and replaced with a VT9 type.
Upshot is that after he fitted this part the appliance was still not cooling properly. Fast Forward she then tries to get him back via his mobile and after several promises that he will come back he fails to do so. She then finds us and out I go to try and sort out her problem, the fridge has stopped running but since the previous engineer had fitted the stat it still did not seem to be cooling that well.
I find that the pot has gone down and advised her of her options, then she tells me that she has only recently just paid out nearly £ 175.00 on the last repair !!!!!! FFS we all need to earn a living but seriously I was horrified and felt sorry for this lady that this guy had ripped her off so very badly and had failed to really get to the root of her problems.
Re: Working on Dual fuel range cooker – Gas Safe registered?
Surely thats not the bottom line, a lot of Gas hobs as fitted to your typical range cooker may require that the burners and other fittings are seperated from the hob surround which is then either raised or lifted off the appliance ? In such cases no break into the Gas is required, BUT if the burners are then left suspended and one cannot help but move the burners and associated supply pipes around during disassembly and reassembly. That being the scenario as I see it, a safety check would be mandatory ( pressure tests ) Manometer required and of course the engineer would need to be Gas Safe.
This question always comes up and my point is that IF no gas parts are broken into, no parts are going to be flexed or any work performed where your work could create a Gas Leak then it may be possible to do such a job. However the whole idea of being Gas Safe registered is that you have the training and ability to perform the testing along with the necessary PLI without which you are leaving yourself, the public and whoever open to danger and legal recourse.
Experience will allow you to make a judgement if any work such as this falls into the area where you can work safely and legally and if you have any doubts then walk away. I did this myself just last week despite a customer trying to pressurise me to do a job which I was not comfortable or qualified to perform, she even called up my office to complain I was just being a jobsworth. I was happy with that as I could sleep that night and lets not forget that if she was ringing to complain I would not do the job who would she be ringing if it all went wrong ?
Re: fault code guide
Eitherway Chaps I still cannot see any value or reason why the FCG would be made public, nothing we can do about it anyway, what the heck !
Re: fault code guide
Martin, I am not getting hot under the collar about this, far from it, I am just trying to understand the thinking behind the decision to port this resource into the public domain, by which I mean that although it may be available on some torrent sites it would hardly be sought after amongst all the other offerings on such sites. By it being available in the App Store many many more people will be exposed to it and a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing,
Who was it that said Never Give Riffles to the Natives ?
Sure thanks go to Ken and everyone else who compiled the info for the FCG and then for bringing it into a useable publication for the greater benefit of Indie Engineers and if UKWG earns any amount of money from it after overheads then good luck to them!
Re: fault code guide
Casual members of the public won’t pay that. ?
So who are casual members of the Public ? Whilst I take onboard the many points and scenarios that you put forward Ken I still do not understand why anyone will have access to this valuable trade resource, I mean can you Imagine Bosch, Electrolux or say Ford producing a App outlining their product fault codes ?
The members of this site are not likely to pass on the FCG or upload it to numerous illegal Torrents, I just cannot see that happening.
Its interesting to note that a subscription fee will be charged, is this going to be the cost to UK Whitegoods & WTA members Ken ?
Re: fault code guide
What i dont understand is that by using a PDF version of the FCG which can be used on either platform why bother with SKDs etc and and the same time allowing the FCG to become a full general public resource ? I must be missng something here ?
